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-   -   B737MAX Recertification - Archive (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/united-airlines-mileageplus/2031779-b737max-recertification-archive.html)

sleuth Mar 10, 2019 1:04 pm


Originally Posted by prestonh (Post 30869727)
Is AA/UA/WN going to dispatch a frame with a known faulty AOA sensor from the previous flight without a certification flight?

Of course not now. But that’s not what the argument was. The argument was that pilots are “well aware”. They weren’t prior to crash #1. Presumably Ethiopian’s pilots are also “now” “well aware” of the issue. But that didn’t stop this one from crashing if it involves the same flaw.

bhunt Mar 10, 2019 1:12 pm


Originally Posted by Mike Jacoubowsky (Post 30869222)
US-based pilots are well aware of the issues that lead to the crash of the earlier 737 Max, and have been trained appropriately. It's not just our lives at stake; it's their own too. I regularly train (ride bicycles) with an AA pilot and he's definitely on top of this stuff. I have no issue whatsoever flying a mainline legacy carrier aircraft of any type. I have flown Ethiopian Air, actually the exact same route as this morning's disaster. Like many (not all!!!) carriers outside the US, there is a sense of "fly casual." Flying in the US is extremely safe. Flying elsewhere is likely much safer than any other way to get around (although I might have some misgivings about a few South American carriers; that plane in Peru that burned to the ground a couple years ago... I was on that airline, at that location, just a couple weeks prior. It didn't surprise me. Nobody died if I recall correctly).

If I remember right. Didn't TWA manage ET till they went out of business.

koreanair720 Mar 10, 2019 1:15 pm


Originally Posted by IAH-OIL-TRASH (Post 30869185)
I flew a 739MAX OGG-LAX last month. I don't if it's any more prone to crashing (we made it), The United logo placement on the wall you see immediately on boarding was the indicator it was a new aircraft version - I even said "ooh, new plane!" to the FA at the door. It's pretty unique (in placement).

Statistically, at least, it is clearly "more prone to crashing" than other planes. Maybe that's a fluke, but, like how the Concorde went from safest to least safe statistically after just one event, the stats are grim for this plane.

EWR764 Mar 10, 2019 1:16 pm


Originally Posted by JimInOhio (Post 30869782)
In your opinion, has that very good and effective process played out in the investigation of and remediation efforts from the Lion Air crash?

JT610 was less than five (5) months ago, no final reports or opinions have been released. There have been some interim findings, on which action has been taken (e.g., training related to the MCAS), but the entire investigation needs 12-18 months, at minimum, to play out.

Do you have reason to believe it hasn't?


Originally Posted by sleuth (Post 30869783)


Of course not now. But that’s not what the argument was. The argument was that pilots are “well aware”. They weren’t prior to crash #1 . Presumably Ethiopian’s pilots are also “now” “well aware” of the issue. But that didn’t stop this one from crashing if it involves the same flaw.

I think you're conflating a few issues here. A faulty AOA sensor or pitot tube isn't so much a 'flaw' as it is a failed instrument (to the extent 'flaw' suggests something inherent to the design), at least with respect to a potential cause of the JT610 case, and such a failure would be a problem in any aircraft, not just the MAX. It would be a remarkable coincidence if that were implicated in the ET crash, but it certainly cannot be ruled out.

As for the MCAS system, I would argue it's not flawed at all, and in fact is a safeguard. But when the system is functioning as designed after being fed faulty data, and the subsequent human intervention is also incorrect, those are links in the chain of events that end in catastrophe.

prestonh Mar 10, 2019 1:16 pm


Originally Posted by sleuth (Post 30869783)


Of course not now. But that’s not what the argument was. The argument was that pilots are “well aware”. They weren’t prior to crash #1. Presumably Ethiopian’s pilots are also “now” “well aware” of the issue. But that didn’t stop this one from crashing if it involves the same flaw.

It's a bit of a strawman. in JT610 the airframe should not have been dispatched as it was not airworthy because the faulty AOA sensor was likely not remediated/tested. My question would be if this would occur in the US airlines cited. You stated no, of course not. As such, the scenario as played out in the air in JT610 would likely have not occurred because imho US carriers have much higher maintenance standards/procedures that are followed which contributes to their safety as demonstrated by this scenario.

So you state 'flaw'. Can you state what this flaw is?

blueman2 Mar 10, 2019 1:20 pm


Originally Posted by BB2220 (Post 30869103)

But why let that silly little detail stop us from mass hysteria?

When 2 new planes using new flight software crash within months of each other, then I hardly call someone questioning the safety of this plane "mass hysteria".

Has this ever happened before in modern times? That 2 brand new planes of a certain new model crashed within a year of the new model release?

artvandalay Mar 10, 2019 1:29 pm


Originally Posted by blueman2 (Post 30869851)
When 2 new planes using new flight software crash within months of each other, then I hardly call someone questioning the safety of this plane "mass hysteria".

Has this ever happened before in modern times? That 2 brand new planes of a certain new model crashed within a year of the new model release?

Yes, depending on what "modern times" are. In fact, it was not uncommon for new planes to experience teething problems, and there have numerous incidents that raised red flags...in some cases, ending the lifespan of the subject AC (eg, DeHavilland Comet.) In other cases--DC-10s, for example-- fatal mistakes were corrected and the AC served for decades.

HawkeyeFlyer Mar 10, 2019 1:30 pm

Difference in 737 and 737-Max.
 
What are the difference, or is there one, in 737 and 737-max planes? How do I know when I look at my booking. I am on a 737-700 from ORD to BUF later today.
Trying to understand what routes UA flies these planes and How to tell

UAL250 Mar 10, 2019 1:33 pm

I am avoiding the plane for now. Twice in just a few months is scary.

jsloan Mar 10, 2019 1:39 pm


Originally Posted by HawkeyeFlyer (Post 30869885)
What are the difference, or is there one, in 737 and 737-max planes? How do I know when I look at my booking. I am on a 737-700 from ORD to BUF later today.
Trying to understand what routes UA flies these planes and How to tell

There is no 737 MAX 7 (yet). The only 737 MAX UA flies is the 737 MAX 9, which will appear in the flight status as "Boeing 737 MAX 9."

ETA: The 737 MAX 7 is expected to enter service later this year. It hasn't been as popular as the MAX 8 and MAX 9 due to capacity differences.

EWR764 Mar 10, 2019 1:40 pm


Originally Posted by blueman2 (Post 30869851)
Has this ever happened before in modern times? That 2 brand new planes of a certain new model crashed within a year of the new model release?

Yes. In pretty much every era of commercial aviation, too. The SSJ-100, A320, 727, 707, de Havilland Comet and others all had, for various reasons, multiple hull-loss and fatal accidents within relatively short periods of their initial service entry. Others, like the Electra, DC-10 and 737, had clusters of nearly-identical incidents (owing to design defects) later in their respective service lives. Even the 787 had well-publicized design issues that led to several significant incidents, fortunately with no loss of life.

The fact that it seems to be a highly unusual occurrence in this era is a fantastic development and a testament to how far the industry has advanced in terms of safety and technological progress.

jsloan Mar 10, 2019 1:45 pm


Originally Posted by blueman2 (Post 30869851)
When 2 new planes using new flight software crash within months of each other, then I hardly call someone questioning the safety of this plane "mass hysteria".

When it comes prior to knowing any of the relevant facts, I disagree.


Originally Posted by blueman2 (Post 30869851)
Has this ever happened before in modern times? That 2 brand new planes of a certain new model crashed within a year of the new model release?

Not to be pedantic, but the first 737 MAX 8 was delivered on May 22, 2017. There were actually no crashes within a year of the new model release.

HawkeyeFlyer Mar 10, 2019 1:51 pm


Originally Posted by jsloan (Post 30869916)
There is no 737 MAX 7 (yet). The only 737 MAX UA flies is the 737 MAX 9, which will appear in the flight status as "Boeing 737 MAX 9."

ETA: The 737 MAX 7 is expected to enter service later this year. It hasn't been as popular as the MAX 8 and MAX 9 due to capacity differences.

So if it says 737-700 on my flight for today, that is NOT the same type of plane in question on these flights that crashed?

Repooc17 Mar 10, 2019 1:54 pm


Originally Posted by HawkeyeFlyer (Post 30869885)
What are the difference, or is there one, in 737 and 737-max planes? How do I know when I look at my booking. I am on a 737-700 from ORD to BUF later today.
Trying to understand what routes UA flies these planes and How to tell

You are not on a MAX plane. MAX is the newest gen 737; whereas aircrafts such as 737-700, 737-800, 737-900, 737-900ER perceded the MAX (M8, M9, M10).

LASUA1K Mar 10, 2019 2:09 pm

I’m avoiding this aircraft! I already hate the 739’s, and avoid them when possible due to headaches after flying in them. It’s extremely hard to avoid, but I do my best. I flew FLL-IAH on a Max and it just felt different. Again, all my only reasons, but I’m avoiding the Max and just switched my Air Canada flight to avoid the Max.


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