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Originally Posted by Aussienarelle
(Post 30902298)
An option...does not sound like a must have.
Profits vs lives. However, in this case I personally put the onus on Boeing. If it is necessary it should not be an option. In both cases on this new plane it sounds as though it should have been mandatory and not a nice to have option. Boeing wanted this plane to act like the other 737s with a common pilot rating. It should not be allowing options on fundamental safety, if that is the case. It is the 737 mAX, where the "m" is silent. I wonder if there are similar systems in the new versions of the 777? |
I think the whole problem now is credibility - credibility of Boeing, the FAA and the airlines. It sickened me today to see Boeing Chairman Dennis Muilenburg's statement. I hope the truth comes out in whatever criminal and civil cases they are going to face around the world and fundamental changes are made (process, culture, design, etc.) so all these people did not die in vain.
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Originally Posted by username
(Post 30903815)
I think the whole problem now is credibility - credibility of Boeing, the FAA and the airlines. It sickened me today to see Boeing Chairman Dennis Muilenburg's statement. I hope the truth comes out in whatever criminal and civil cases they are going to face around the world and fundamental changes are made (process, culture, design, etc.) so all these people did not die in vain.
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Originally Posted by vkng
(Post 30902143)
ET did not have it either.
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Originally Posted by Say Vandelay
(Post 30904861)
Since this is the United thread, does anyone know if UA took the 2nd sensor option?
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Originally Posted by BF263533
(Post 30903784)
I wonder if there are similar systems in the new versions of the 777? If it's a new Boeing, I'm not going. |
Originally Posted by BF263533
(Post 30903784)
The FAA should not be certifying the option situation. Blame on FAA also if it is an option situation.
Boeing wanted this plane to act like the other 737s with a common pilot rating. It should not be allowing options on fundamental safety, if that is the case. It is the 737 mAX, where the "m" is silent. I wonder if there are similar systems in the new versions of the 777? |
Originally Posted by bman1002
(Post 30904994)
Not only that, but what about the 777X folding wingtips? Makes you wonder if the same (or any) care was taken to certify that. I don't believe United has any on order, but from my understanding, not all customers have been identified.
If it's a new Boeing, I'm not going. |
Originally Posted by amtrakusa
(Post 30905026)
i wonder if there are similar systems in the new versions of A320? folks, there are bunch of things people don't know about. don't think Boeing is unique in any of these.
Originally Posted by EWR764
(Post 30905074)
Among the first posts I made in this thread was to caution against stringing together disparate facts to draw deeply flawed, incorrect conclusions. This would be one of those times.
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Originally Posted by username
(Post 30903815)
I think the whole problem now is credibility - credibility of Boeing, the FAA and the airlines. It sickened me today to see Boeing Chairman Dennis Muilenburg's statement. I hope the truth comes out in whatever criminal and civil cases they are going to face around the world and fundamental changes are made (process, culture, design, etc.) so all these people did not die in vain.
When the ET crash occurred, I was willing to give the benefit of the doubt - initial reports suggested that there were somewhat different circumstances than Lion Air. Seems like the more that comes out, there were more similar than not (though Lion Air apparently knew the sensors weren’t working prior to their fatal flight, and it shouldn’t have gone out). And as that happened, and the focus came in again on MCAS, and we learned that pilots not only didn’t need to be trained on it, but it wasn’t even listed in documentation for pilots to read. And that the FAA gave their blessing with no additional pilot training. What I’m not sure of is how much of this was Boeing failing to even mention it to FAA, vs. FAA knowing yet still rubber stamping Boeing’s lackluster training recommendations, presumably made so that airlines would be able to buy the aircraft without ‘needing’ additional training for pilots. How is this even possible. And how did Boeing’s CEO really think it was smart to constantly uphold the safety of the aircraft, knowing what he knows about everything behind the scenes (that’s a rhetorical question...but I get liability and not wanting exposure to additional lawsuits). So the question is not just on this, but how long has stuff like this been going on with Boeing and the FAA? Is the fact that the 777s haven’t had major issues a fluke, or is that a result of certification measures that were better at the time? Does the fact that FAA certification is considered as good as the national certification in other countries continue? And what happens to Boeing going forward? Did they really put so many lives at stake just to get an aircraft out X years faster than otherwise. Can they even survive after all the payouts to airlines, penalties, etc. if nothing else, gives Airbus a huge selling point. I’ll admit I always preferred Airbus to Boeing aircraft, but that opinion was mostly based on the fact that to me, it felt like a more comfortable aircraft. It was never a concern over potential safety issues with Boeing. Now, I’m starting to wonder. I think I read Lion Air has 200 MAXs in order, and since December, have considered canceling them and giving the orders to Airbus. How many other carriers are now considering this? Will these MAXs ever be allowed up in the air again, and how does that affect the airlines that bought them, particularly airlines like AC who can’t really absorb the impact of this with the rest of their fleet (unlike UA who can, since it’s such a small portion of the fleet). How long does will it now take to deliver an Airbus after ordering one, and how quickly will you be able to get a Boeing. Wil Boeing even be able to get people to order their aircraft at cost? As more and more news comes out, I’m feeling more and more dismayed, and wondering how so many basic things seemed to have been put aside in the creation and certification of this aircraft. Put me down as someone who initially wasn’t worried about flying in a MAX, but now definitely am, even when if they are certified to fly again. |
Originally Posted by bman1002
(Post 30905105)
I have nowhere near the knowledge you do in these matters, but in the last week, this has evolved from an issue that seemed to be very hardware specific, into something where we are seeing a failure in the process and institutions around certification. I am not concluding that the 777X is unsafe, I am just saying that I am concerned given the new info that has popped up this week.
The media falls victim every day to what seems to be an intense, overwhelming, virtually irresistible pressure to project everything, especially related to aviation disasters, as a crisis. Taking things one step further is the apparent need to politicize the entire news cycle. And I'll admit, I can see how the process is terrifying for the average person, because it speaks to the inherent lack of control that underlies a fear of flying held by many people. Still, we don't need to be jumping to conclusions at this point, or taking things out of context to form the basis of a suspicion that any sort of malfeasance is rampant. |
My personal reaction is to feel even more strongly that I'm not willing to fly on a (now longer) list of airlines. I never have or would fly Lion Air, but to me it's a revelation that a respected international carrier like ET would hire a copilot with only 200 hours. OTOH if there's a shortage of well qualified pilots, maybe the Airbus approach makes more sense as it seems to rely less on the skill and judgment of pilots. |
Originally Posted by MSPeconomist
(Post 30905176)
My personal reaction is to feel even more strongly that I'm not willing to fly on a (now longer) list of airlines. I never have or would fly Lion Air, but to me it's a revelation that a respected international carrier like ET would hire a copilot with only 200 hours. OTOH if there's a shortage of well qualified pilots, maybe the Airbus approach makes more sense as it seems to rely less on the skill and judgment of pilots. I started my career in a CRJ with around 700 flight hours. Looking back now, that was dangerous. 200 hours is unimaginable in a B737, you're just a warm body working the radios with that experience level. |
Originally Posted by clubord
(Post 30905354)
Respectfully, skill and judgement of pilots is gained from experience. A 200 hour pilot can just as easily put an Airbus in the trees as a Boeing.
I started my career in a CRJ with around 700 flight hours. Looking back now, that was dangerous. 200 hours is unimaginable in a B737, you're just a warm body working the radios with that experience level. http://www.mlit.go.jp/jtsb/eng-air_report/B1816.pdf Reader's Digest version: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Airlines_Flight_140 The precise factual scenarios differ, but fundamentally, very little of this is unprecedented. |
The blame here seems to be solely on Boeing's shoulders. They originally submitted FAA cert docs that mentioned the MCAS system could only manipulate the tail by 0.6 degrees. They then realized that 0.6 was not sufficient and decided to reprogram it allow for a 2.5 degree manipulation without letting the FAA know (atleast that is what the article implies). So the FAA certified the plane on an assumption that MCAS would move the plane by +/- 0.6 degrees and in reality was doing +/- 2.5 degrees. That is half the total movement and in flight terms a lot! Yes the FAA didn't double check, but looks like Boeing manipulated - maybe just like VW did with the emissions scandals to fool the inspectors and the inspection.
Article Source - https://www.seattletimes.com/busines...ion-air-crash/ |
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