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-   -   B737MAX Recertification - Archive (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/united-airlines-mileageplus/2031779-b737max-recertification-archive.html)

notquiteaff Dec 15, 2019 7:20 pm


Originally Posted by DenverBrian (Post 31843602)

or money to make them?

HNLbasedFlyer Dec 15, 2019 11:03 pm


Originally Posted by Xyzzy (Post 31842442)
There were similar predictions of doom and gloom for the DC-10. Am I the :confused:nly one who recalls the problems with that aircraft?

Also 747 crashes from design flaws - but people are still enamored with the "Queen of the sky"

kac2138 Dec 16, 2019 4:33 am

I’ll definitely fly on it again. I’m more concerned actually with like...comfort. I expect it will be safe eventually. I’ve heard bad things about the bathroom size.

jjmoore Dec 16, 2019 6:24 am


Originally Posted by DenverBrian (Post 31843602)

I'm pretty sure there are still places to park 'em :D .... STL airport has around 30 unused gates in the C concourse, and I am sure there is real estate at ROW airport to house a few of them. And who knows, if these planes never fly again and they are stored at ROW, they don't even have to be moved. haha!!!! :p

DenverBrian Dec 16, 2019 7:59 am


Originally Posted by HNLbasedFlyer (Post 31844078)
Also 747 crashes from design flaws - but people are still enamored with the "Queen of the sky"

Crashes plural? The only 747 crash due to a design flaw I'm aware of is TWA 800.

The main difference here, as has been pointed out many times, is that this is an instance of a very new plane model crashing twice in a very short period of time due to the same design flaw. You have to go back to the de Havilland Comet to see a similar pattern.

RNE Dec 16, 2019 9:35 am


Originally Posted by DenverBrian (Post 31843602)
No more places to park 'em?

Plenty of space around Concourse D at CLE. ;)

TWA884 Dec 16, 2019 9:37 am


Originally Posted by DenverBrian (Post 31845037)
Crashes plural? The only 747 crash due to a design flaw I'm aware of is TWA 800.

LH 540 - stalled and crashed in part due to an insufficient warning system
ULF 48 - structural failure left wing
JAL 123 - sudden decompression due to faulty bulkhead ripping off a portion of the tail and loss of all hydraulic controls
UAL 811 - cargo door burst open due to short circuit; the pilots managed to return to the airport, but 9 passengers died
CAL 358 - metal fatigue resulting in the number 3 engine detaching and striking the number 4 engine, breaking it off the wing
ELY 1862 - metal fatigue resulting in the number engine 3 breaking off, knocking off the number 4 engine which in turn ripped off slats; it crashed into apartment blocks
CAL 611 - tail broke off in flight due to metal fatigue causing the plane to disintegrate mid-air
KAL 8509 - crashed due to erroneous altitude indicator

dilanesp Dec 16, 2019 9:49 am

The main difference is that the airline flying public these days tolerates less risk because we don't have periodic plane crashes the way we did in the 1970's and 1980's. We used to have a couple every year, including American carriers. Now they are very rare, and I believe the last one involving a major carrier was either the Colgan Air crash (if you count it) a decade and a half ago, or the American Airlines crash in Queens back in late 2001.

In 2019, airliners are expected to be completely safe. And I think that's a reasonable expectation. It's obviously possible to design these things in ways that won't kill anyone- even new designs like the Airbus neo. So the MAX is unacceptable.

JimInOhio Dec 16, 2019 9:53 am


Originally Posted by dilanesp (Post 31845451)
The main difference is that the airline flying public these days tolerates less risk because we don't have periodic plane crashes the way we did in the 1970's and 1980's. We used to have a couple every year, including American carriers. Now they are very rare, and I believe the last one involving a major carrier was either the Colgan Air crash (if you count it) a decade and a half ago, or the American Airlines crash in Queens back in late 2001.

In 2019, airliners are expected to be completely safe. And I think that's a reasonable expectation. It's obviously possible to design these things in ways that won't kill anyone- even new designs like the Airbus neo. So the MAX is unacceptable.

No, the only way to be completely safe from air accidents is to never leave your house... and hope a plane doesn't land on it.

Newman55 Dec 16, 2019 9:55 am


Originally Posted by dilanesp (Post 31845451)
The main difference is that the airline flying public these days tolerates less risk because we don't have periodic plane crashes the way we did in the 1970's and 1980's. We used to have a couple every year, including American carriers. Now they are very rare, and I believe the last one involving a major carrier was either the Colgan Air crash (if you count it) a decade and a half ago, or the American Airlines crash in Queens back in late 2001.

In 2019, airliners are expected to be completely safe. And I think that's a reasonable expectation. It's obviously possible to design these things in ways that won't kill anyone- even new designs like the Airbus neo. So the MAX is unacceptable.

As pointed out many times in this thread. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the physical design of the max. This is a software, training and redundancy issue; all of which can be fixed.

DenverBrian Dec 16, 2019 10:07 am


Originally Posted by TWA884 (Post 31845410)
LH 540 - stalled and crashed in part due to an insufficient warning system
ULF 48 - structural failure left wing
JAL 123 - sudden decompression due to faulty bulkhead ripping off a portion of the tail and loss of all hydraulic controls
UAL 811 - cargo door burst open due to short circuit; the pilots managed to return to the airport, but 9 passengers died
CAL 358 - metal fatigue resulting in the number 3 engine detaching and striking the number 4 engine, breaking it off the wing
ELY 1862 - metal fatigue resulting in the number engine 3 breaking off, knocking off the number 4 engine which in turn ripped off slats; it crashed into apartment blocks
CAL 611 - tail broke off in flight due to metal fatigue causing the plane to disintegrate mid-air
KAL 8509 - crashed due to erroneous altitude indicator

Lots of caveats on your list. Design flaws? All pax died? Any pax carried? Not to mention, this is a list comprising decades of flight, not 10 months. It's simply not a valid comparison. And you could make such a list for virtually any passenger jet model.

moondog Dec 16, 2019 10:18 am


Originally Posted by Newman55 (Post 31845480)
As pointed out many times in this thread. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the physical design of the max. This is a software, training and redundancy issue; all of which can be fixed.

That's all good, but I'm not going to fly on MAX for at least another year, and my junior staff have told me they will stay home instead of flying MAX. I'm not going to fight them over this. I'll either pay higher fares for them to fly non-MAX, or we can do video meetings.

TWA884 Dec 16, 2019 10:29 am


Originally Posted by DenverBrian (Post 31845520)
Lots of caveats on your list. Design flaws?

Those were due to design flaws just as much as in your example of TWA 800.

Except for the UAL flight, all aboard died. Two or three of the flights which I listed were cargo - same engine pilon and wing design - and one was a military flight with passengers; are crew members lives not as precious as those of passengers.

Visconti Dec 16, 2019 10:32 am


Originally Posted by moondog (Post 31845559)
That's all good, but I'm not going to fly on MAX for at least another year, and my junior staff have told me they will stay home instead of flying MAX. I'm not going to fight them over this. I'll either pay higher fares for them to fly non-MAX, or we can do video meetings.

Of course, it's just common sense, in my view. I'm not paranoid, but I wouldn't even be amongst the first to get on a new roller coaster, let alone an Airplane that fell from the sky shortly after takeoff in a similar fashion twice within a span of several months. I mean, what are the odds on that?

moondog Dec 16, 2019 10:39 am


Originally Posted by TWA884 (Post 31845607)
Those were due to design flaws just as much as in your example of TWA 800.

Except for the UAL flight, all aboard died. Two or three of the flights which I listed were cargo - same engine pilon and wing design - and one was a military flight with passengers; are crew members lives not as precious as those of passengers.

We're talking about narrow body airplanes that get you from ORD to BOS or me from SHA to NNG. Only one plane that plies these routes has performed dives into the earth at low altitude. I will avoid this plane until I'm 100% positive that the bugs are fixed.


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