Mar 20, 2020, 9:29 pm
Last edit by: WineCountryUA
Please do not modify or remove
In recent days a number of threads have started touching on the impacts on UA as a business going forward due to the travel disruption of COVID-19 --- including multiple Viability / Bankruptcy / Bailout discussions. While inconceivable a few months ago, UA (and all commercial airlines) is facing challenges that are uncharted.
This consolidated thread has been created by merging a number of existing threads that trend to address essentially the same subjects.
Some thread guidelines
-- This thread / forum is for discussing UA and the UA traveler, so please focus on UA in these discussions. Other forums exist to discuss other carriers or the industry in general -- we do just UA here.
-- This thread is for discussion of how UA gets from here to its future state.
-- All the standard FT rules apply. We will have a civil, constructive, collegial discussion -- even in these turbulent times.
-- While much of this will play out in the political arena, this forum is not the place for political / OMNI discussions. Please use threads in appropriate forums for that, such as Covid-19 US tax cuts or fiscal stimulus
-- Similarly, discussions of the evils / greed of corporations or other broad societal issues are out of scope, those are for OMNI -- let's stick to discussing UA, its past and its future here
-- Please do not start new threads on these topics in the UA forum. One reason for this consolidated thread was to minimize the redundant posts in separate threads. There is plenty of room in the scope of this thread to cover all aspects of these topics. (Note things like M&A, restructuring, ... would all be in scope).
-- Please once you have laid out your position, do not repetitively re-state that opinion. It is usually a better discussion if many participate vs a few dominating the thread
On behalf of the UA Moderator Team
WineCountryUA
In recent days a number of threads have started touching on the impacts on UA as a business going forward due to the travel disruption of COVID-19 --- including multiple Viability / Bankruptcy / Bailout discussions. While inconceivable a few months ago, UA (and all commercial airlines) is facing challenges that are uncharted.
This consolidated thread has been created by merging a number of existing threads that trend to address essentially the same subjects.
Some thread guidelines
-- This thread / forum is for discussing UA and the UA traveler, so please focus on UA in these discussions. Other forums exist to discuss other carriers or the industry in general -- we do just UA here.
-- This thread is for discussion of how UA gets from here to its future state.
-- All the standard FT rules apply. We will have a civil, constructive, collegial discussion -- even in these turbulent times.
-- While much of this will play out in the political arena, this forum is not the place for political / OMNI discussions. Please use threads in appropriate forums for that, such as Covid-19 US tax cuts or fiscal stimulus
-- Similarly, discussions of the evils / greed of corporations or other broad societal issues are out of scope, those are for OMNI -- let's stick to discussing UA, its past and its future here
-- Please do not start new threads on these topics in the UA forum. One reason for this consolidated thread was to minimize the redundant posts in separate threads. There is plenty of room in the scope of this thread to cover all aspects of these topics. (Note things like M&A, restructuring, ... would all be in scope).
-- Please once you have laid out your position, do not repetitively re-state that opinion. It is usually a better discussion if many participate vs a few dominating the thread
On behalf of the UA Moderator Team
WineCountryUA
UA's Viability / Financial Future due to the COVID-19 Era [Consolidated]
Mar 20, 2020, 6:53 pm
#376
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2000
Location: TPA for now. Hopefully LIS for retirement
Posts: 13,708
Mar 20, 2020, 7:01 pm
#377
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: SFO
Posts: 3,942
Zippo. Nada. Zilch.
I don't owe corporations anything.
I don't owe corporations anything.
Mar 20, 2020, 7:33 pm
#378
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: MSP
Programs: DL PM, UA Gold, WN, Global Entry; +others wherever miles/points are found
Posts: 14,424
I remember how expensive domestic F used to be relative to Y and am very happy that UA has lowered its prices, albeit at the expense of less comfortable seats and tighter cabins. However, nobody domestically is really competing with a widely available superior domestic F product, so I buy based mainly on price and convenience, with a small pinch of sentimental attachment to UA thrown in.
Mar 20, 2020, 7:50 pm
#379
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: LAX/TPE
Programs: United 1K, JAL Sapphire, SPG Lifetime Platinum, National Executive Elite, Hertz PC, Avis PC
Posts: 42,231
United is laser focused on thing only - hitting arbitrary metrics - egged on by obnoxious analysts with no ownership interest in the business, while deliberately ignoring the product, the customers, and the employees, just lurching from quarter to quarter hoping for good numbers, and worse, giving away their available cash to shareholders instead of reinvesting in the business, employees and making sure they were strategically set for a downturn that even my pet birds know hits the airline industry on a regular basis, virus or not. As I've said many times in the past, shareholders offer absolutely zero value to a business once the IPO is over. Unless the shareholders plan on sending checks to United to help keep it afloat, is there any need to pander to them now, or in the future?
Mar 20, 2020, 7:57 pm
#380
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: LAX/TPE
Programs: United 1K, JAL Sapphire, SPG Lifetime Platinum, National Executive Elite, Hertz PC, Avis PC
Posts: 42,231
United is a corporation, not a person. It is a thing - it neither deserves help, nor sympathy. It's employees certainly deserve some form of assistance, but too bad for them, the cash available to cover their payroll until this blows over was handed to the shareholders, so the employees are sent on furlough or laid off and out of luck. I am worried about them, but United? Not a chance.
What exactly am I suppose to do to help United, send them a check? I have about 5,000 posts on here giving management sage advice on how not to be a moron who runs a business into the ground - since all of that was ignored, I am all tapped out on giving.
What exactly am I suppose to do to help United, send them a check? I have about 5,000 posts on here giving management sage advice on how not to be a moron who runs a business into the ground - since all of that was ignored, I am all tapped out on giving.
Mar 20, 2020, 7:59 pm
#381
Join Date: Oct 2018
Programs: United 1k, HH Diamond, Bonvoy Ambassador and LT-Gold
Posts: 1,664
I am sorry that some of you have had such horrible experiences to the extent that you want them to fail
I guess my mere 800k BIS is overall a little different.....
yes, I had damaged and lost luggage (and sometime it didnt catch up with me until after my trip)
yes, I had delayed flights to made me miss deadlines
yes, when they closed the Cleveland hub (my home and where my family still lives - even though I dont anymore) - it took away some of my options
but, they also got me home when I needed to get home....... and that is much more important right now than my tumi going to Mumbai when I was going to Delhi
let's save the hate for the countless other posts.....
-m
I guess my mere 800k BIS is overall a little different.....
yes, I had damaged and lost luggage (and sometime it didnt catch up with me until after my trip)
yes, I had delayed flights to made me miss deadlines
yes, when they closed the Cleveland hub (my home and where my family still lives - even though I dont anymore) - it took away some of my options
but, they also got me home when I needed to get home....... and that is much more important right now than my tumi going to Mumbai when I was going to Delhi
let's save the hate for the countless other posts.....
-m
Mar 20, 2020, 8:16 pm
#382
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,233
I have as much support for UA as they would for me if I had some rough times and showed up at the airport asking for a free ticket to get home because I’m a 1MM and have been loyal to them in the past.
UA is a company, not a person or a charity case. They will go bankrupt and someone will replace them. That’s the way it should work.
The distaste the public has for bailing out the airlines is all you need to know about how they treated flyers recently. As you sow, so you shall reap.
UA is a company, not a person or a charity case. They will go bankrupt and someone will replace them. That’s the way it should work.
The distaste the public has for bailing out the airlines is all you need to know about how they treated flyers recently. As you sow, so you shall reap.
Mar 20, 2020, 8:19 pm
#383
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: HNL
Programs: UA GS4MM, MR LT Plat, Hilton Gold
Posts: 6,447
The best thing we can do is look forward to spending money on UA. To that end I started looking at prices for fares into the summer and fall and guess what....there has been zero changes to the pricing model! The prices for US-Europe are still $1500 for economy seats. Why? Who at united is still clinging to the hope that people are willing to pay 1.5k for a TATL flight?
Mar 20, 2020, 8:25 pm
#384
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: ZOA, SFO, HKG
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Posts: 13,811
Beside - seriously, when UA makes changes, has it ever considered us as loyal customers instead of some suckers who will simply cough up money?
I don't want UA to fail. But there is a price to pay when UA decides from PQD to PQP.
Mar 20, 2020, 8:29 pm
#385
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: HNL
Programs: UA GS4MM, MR LT Plat, Hilton Gold
Posts: 6,447
Mar 20, 2020, 8:29 pm
#386
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2017
Programs: AS 75K, DL Silver, UA Platinum, Hilton Gold, Hyatt Discoverist, Marriott Platinum + LT Gold
Posts: 10,517
It's really simple, if you don't like UA, there are plenty of other airlines to choose from.
Highly route specific. I can pick out a sub $500 EWR-LHR (non-BE) roundtrip summer fare within 30 seconds. Other origin and destinations will vary (higher or lower) in price. You can't just generalize "$1.5K TATL flight".
The best thing we can do is look forward to spending money on UA. To that end I started looking at prices for fares into the summer and fall and guess what....there has been zero changes to the pricing model! The prices for US-Europe are still $1500 for economy seats. Why? Who at united is still clinging to the hope that people are willing to pay 1.5k for a TATL flight?
I always foolishly thought supply vs demand is what drove pricing but clearly with big 3 quasi monopoly on air travel they dont think they need to bother with tweaking prices. The more I think about it, the more I want the big three to fail and have all the assets (gates, planes, etc) auctioned off to 5, 6, 7, 8 different entrepreneurs to rebuild a new airline ecosystem. While we are at it, rebuild the antiquated reservation and ticketing systems. This is a great time to reset, start fresh with healthy competition.
Oh and ban airline merges for 20 years.
I always foolishly thought supply vs demand is what drove pricing but clearly with big 3 quasi monopoly on air travel they dont think they need to bother with tweaking prices. The more I think about it, the more I want the big three to fail and have all the assets (gates, planes, etc) auctioned off to 5, 6, 7, 8 different entrepreneurs to rebuild a new airline ecosystem. While we are at it, rebuild the antiquated reservation and ticketing systems. This is a great time to reset, start fresh with healthy competition.
Oh and ban airline merges for 20 years.
Mar 20, 2020, 8:34 pm
#387
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 979
Nope. I've been putting up for years with substandard surly service from an oligopolistic, rent-seeking airline that overpays its executives and its union employees at my expense. Traveling within Europe or Asia on other airlines, I was always struck at how much better it actually can be -- and how much cheaper.
Whenever there was a whiff of competition from Norwegian or Virgin, those executives and employees all rallied to keep them out. They did the same with the ME3. Don't those claims of unfair subsidies sound silly now? United conspired to lock us into their crappy, surly service.
Good riddance, United. Maybe we can subsidize a European or Asian airline to start service here. Why bail out a crappy airline like United, when you can bail out a good one? Schumpeter had a good idea about creative destruction.
Whenever there was a whiff of competition from Norwegian or Virgin, those executives and employees all rallied to keep them out. They did the same with the ME3. Don't those claims of unfair subsidies sound silly now? United conspired to lock us into their crappy, surly service.
Good riddance, United. Maybe we can subsidize a European or Asian airline to start service here. Why bail out a crappy airline like United, when you can bail out a good one? Schumpeter had a good idea about creative destruction.
I’d much rather have my tax money support another customer friendly airline.
Mar 20, 2020, 8:37 pm
#388
Join Date: Jul 2013
Programs: DYKWIA, But I'm a "Diamond Guest" UA 1K/2MM
Posts: 2,258
I mostly agree with you. However, I would add that United is a little more than a thing. It is a corporate culture -- a really nasty one. It is a culture that considers customers to be a nuisance; it routinely places executives ahead of employees and employees ahead of customers. It starts at the top, but also filters down to the front-line employees -- the lounge dragons, the FAs, and gate agents. It's a culture that deserves to perish and be replaced by something better.
Mar 20, 2020, 8:38 pm
#389
Join Date: Oct 2018
Programs: United 1k, HH Diamond, Bonvoy Ambassador and LT-Gold
Posts: 1,664
I am seeing a lot of bargain flights for places that I want to go also.....
I can understand the distain for the corporate aspects of this issue - and I am not sure there is such a widespread hatred for corporate bail outs (and maybe another post can speculate what happens if UA completely ceases operations - not just bankrupt - but no more flying - check out the latest email from Oscar) - but the >100,000 employees
I find it interesting also how much hatred there from people who claim to be 1MM, 2MM, GS, 1k for many years, etc....
-m
I can understand the distain for the corporate aspects of this issue - and I am not sure there is such a widespread hatred for corporate bail outs (and maybe another post can speculate what happens if UA completely ceases operations - not just bankrupt - but no more flying - check out the latest email from Oscar) - but the >100,000 employees
I find it interesting also how much hatred there from people who claim to be 1MM, 2MM, GS, 1k for many years, etc....
-m
Mar 20, 2020, 8:40 pm
#390
Join Date: Oct 2018
Programs: United 1k, HH Diamond, Bonvoy Ambassador and LT-Gold
Posts: 1,664
beyond bankruptcy.....
in the context of many airlines ceasing ALL operations......
https://hub.united.com/2020-03-20-un...645554693.html
especially for those of you who relish the thought of chapter 11 for UA (or AA or etc) - my recollection is that during that last bankruptcy, UA continues to fly planes..... we are talking about NO MORE air travel.....
-m
https://hub.united.com/2020-03-20-un...645554693.html
especially for those of you who relish the thought of chapter 11 for UA (or AA or etc) - my recollection is that during that last bankruptcy, UA continues to fly planes..... we are talking about NO MORE air travel.....
-m