I was on a flight Monday that was already running late due to problems at ORD. We closed the door. Then the pilot came on and said a problem they fixed earlier came back. We opened the door. A few minutes later (I think before maintenance came onboard), someone from the ground (not sure if it was a GA) said pilot timed out and everyone off the plane while they looked for replacement.

It was about 7:15 PM, I think. Soon after we deplaned, the flight was changed to the next morning at 6:30. I got myself moved to the redeye.

On the redeye, there were many fellow passengers who also moved instead of taking the re-timed flight. One woman told me what happened was that the pilots did not really time out, they declared "fatigue". She said that there is the mandatory FAA timeout rule but pilots can also declare fatigue.

How do the rules work? Any idea what might have happened?

Thanks.

Don't hold me to this, but I believe the pilots contract gives them a window where they are permitted to decline a flight before the FAA mandates the crew not rested. I don't know the details behind it though or how many hours it is.

Hypothetical Example: Pilots have 4 hours legal work time, but have the option to walk off while one hour legal.

Expected flight time is 2'55" - Crew must take the flight
Expected flight time is 3'30" - Crew has the option to take the flight or walk off
Expected flight time is 4'05" - Crew must not take the flight

I would hope that at any point in time a pilot would be able to say, "I'm too tired to safely operate this flight".

As long as it's not a regular occurrence, I don't see that as being any different from "I have the flu".

"Pilot fatigue" has been cited as a contributing factor in too many incidents.

This, this, and so much this. Thank you.

There are times where one might be "legal" both contractually and by FAA standards, but for some reason or another, be too tired to work safely. As someone who's felt the effects that a reserve crew member's schedule can cause on a person, I will never be upset if a pilot is too tired to work a flight. Even if I'd miss a holiday at home with my family, or an important event, etc. Getting there safely is better than never getting there at all.

This is completely incorrect.

There are no contractual "windows" built in for pilots to have the option to decline a flight. Quite the opposite, in some situations pilots may extend their duty to the maximum FAA Part 117 duty day limits. This situation happens on international weather diversions.

Never getting there is better than never going anywhere again.

you two might be arguing over semantics.

Pilots have a contractual limit. Pilots can choose to waive this (presuming it is less than FAR limit).

Absolute limit is FAR 117 maximum, which cannot be (legally) waived.

The details of contracts vary from airline to airline. However there are two elements in common.
1. There are regulatory maximums that cannot be exceeded. This is complex, depending on a variety of factors such as when you started and how many legs you have. Contracts cannot override these. this is referred to as timing out.
2. Any pilot may call fatigued at any time and MUST be removed from the flight assignment. The pilot cannot be punished for this action.

This is because, as others have stated, pilot fatigue is frequently the leading cause of aircraft accidents. As inconvenient as it may be for you to have your flight cancel, it's better than dying.

At my airline, using the word fatigue with crew control is all you need to do for them to start looking for a replacement. All fatigue calls require a follow up report that is reviewed. If you made every effort to be rested and the fatigue was not your fault, you will be paid for the cancelled flight. The airline and the FAA does not want us flying tired. Not should you.

In my experience, pilots are mindful of the disruption caused and do not take a fatigue call lightly.

Timing out is not in the pilots hands. And, you must be able to complete the flight before timing out which is why timeouts usual happen at the departure airport, often on taxi out or after boarding when it becomes apparent that due to delays, the flight cannot be completed.

Hope this helps clarify the rules.

Finally, a FT thread that is respectful of the facts, respectful of safety, and respectful towards other posters. Mods, close it now before someone posts something mean.

I think that's a pretty reasonable way to describe the gap between the contractual limit and legal limit.

There really isn't a contractual limit anymore. Since 14 CFR 117 went into effect, we fly up to the limits of the regulation.

We must certify ourselves fit for duty prior to every flight. If we are too fatigued to fly we don't certify fit, or we rescind our fit certification. Makes no difference how much rest we've had or how long we've been on duty. If I was unable to sleep at the hotel then I can be fatigued even before reporting for duty.

Thank You!!!!

Fair enough!!!