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Why United's pacific-route business class loading is always high?

Why United's pacific-route business class loading is always high?

Old Oct 14, 2018, 10:21 am
  #16  
 
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I fly to NRT for work and find that the United often has the cheapest J prices.

As others have said, the 2-4-2 configuration on the ORD 777s sucks. I know it is being phased out, but I flew on one last month. I was sitting next to a larger passenger and bumped into him a few times while we were both in our seats. I expect that in Y, but not in a multi thousand dollar J seat.
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Old Oct 14, 2018, 10:28 am
  #17  
 
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For many of us not traveling on OPM, MP is just as much a "service" as is the soft product. When you take that into consideration, UA's service is quite up there.
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Old Oct 14, 2018, 11:01 am
  #18  
 
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I think the post below sum it up perfectly. UA has a large network with lots of codeshare partners and is hubbed in some of the largest and most corporate travel focused cites in the US. The reality is that most people flying for work are paying the most and aren't "business class enthusiasts". They care about time, their miles, and not a lot else.


Originally Posted by Often1
The thread count of the hot towels isn't a major factor outside of FT.
Originally Posted by jasondc
They get on the plane in dc fall asleep then wake up in London and go to work. They dont care about all the stuff people complain about endlessly here, and the ua seats, even the dreaded 2-4-2 , are comfortable and enable sleep. These are the people who drive the paid j business. Not those who come here and complain endlessly about certain service standards while traveling on upgrades or deep discounted j class tix.
Originally Posted by lhrsfo
With its *A miles and MP program, it's quite a compelling proposition for those who aren't simply occasional flyers.
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Old Oct 14, 2018, 3:08 pm
  #19  
 
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Originally Posted by steveo
Don't discount that United has hubs at the 4 largest cities in the nation, all with huge asian populations
Had to stop-and-think about this one. SFO and LAX are obvious; I don't know about Chicago's population composition. I assume you consider EWR to be a hub "at the 4 largest cities in the nation" which is close (to Wall Street) but otherwise "no cigar!"
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Old Oct 14, 2018, 3:51 pm
  #20  
 
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Originally Posted by Kacee
Can you cite the statistics you are relying on for this assertion?
More than anecdotal, AA no longer flies ORD to Asia. DL in ORD has no direct Asia either. Who is left? Ive seen 4/4 failed advance upgrades from ORD to Asiaand two battlefield upgrades one at the gate and one on the aircraft right before pushback.

Ive written off the Polaris Lounge as something not for upgrades since UA wont need to offer that to me as AA and the Flagship Lounge no longer apply in Chicago.
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Old Oct 14, 2018, 4:17 pm
  #21  
 
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Originally Posted by AndyPatterson
Had to stop-and-think about this one. SFO and LAX are obvious; I don't know about Chicago's population composition. I assume you consider EWR to be a hub "at the 4 largest cities in the nation" which is close (to Wall Street) but otherwise "no cigar!"
This is what wikipidia says. If you include cities proper its a very different list. Correction, hubs in 4/5 of the largest cities, and AA isn't really flying trans-pacific out of chicago anymore.
1 New York-Newark-Jersey City, NY-NJ-PA MSA20,320,87619,567,410+3.85%New York-Newark, NY-NJ-CT-PA CSA
2 Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim, CA MSA13,353,90712,828,837+4.09%Los Angeles-Long Beach, CA CSA
3 Chicago-Naperville-Elgin, IL-IN-WI MSA9,533,0409,461,105+0.76%Chicago-Naperville, IL-IN-WI CSA
4 Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington, TX MSA7,399,6626,426,214+15.15%Dallas-Fort Worth, TX-OK CSA
5 Houston-The Woodlands-Sugar Land, TX MSA6,892,4275,920,416+16.42%Houston-The Woodlands, TX CSA
6 Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV MSA6,216,5895,636,232+10.30%Washington-Baltimore-Arlington, DC-MD-VA-WV-PA CSA
7 Miami-Fort Lauderdale-West Palm Beach, FL MSA6,158,8245,564,635+10.68%Miami-Fort Lauderdale-Port St. Lucie, FL CSA
8 Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington, PA-NJ-DE-MD MSA6,096,1205,965,343+2.19%Philadelphia-Reading-Camden, PA-NJ-DE-MD CSA
9 Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Roswell, GA MSA5,884,7365,286,728+11.31%Atlanta-Athens-Sandy Springs, GA CSA
10 Boston-Cambridge-Newton, MA-NH MSA4,836,5314,552,402+6.24%Boston-Worcester-Providence, MA-RI-NH-CT CSA

Last edited by WineCountryUA; Oct 14, 2018 at 11:33 pm Reason: repaired formatting
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Old Oct 14, 2018, 4:31 pm
  #22  
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A good combination of mostly OPM/FlyAmerica/Corporate discounts/connection convenience from anywhere, USA/easy upgrades

I doubt that anyone but the most loyal UA flyers would actually choose to fly United business over an Asian carrier, all other factors equal.
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Old Oct 14, 2018, 5:26 pm
  #23  
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Scheduling and Optionality

As a primary business flyer acrossed the Pacifics for the past 25+ years, I fully understand Uniteds shortfalls in many areas that FTers feel negatively about.

However, as a business traveler, I make my decisions based on a total package not a pierce meal of focusing on 2-4-2 seatings (on certain routes), low quality and inconsistent catering (in certain markets), questionable services quality etc.

In the past decade, my travels have been a monthly or bi-monthly commute, not a quarterly visit or occasional personal trips, so I have chosen United for the following:
  • Scheduling: I can fly or connect to all of Asia from all 7 hubs in the US.
  • Multiple flights and options from all seven hubs except for DEN.
  • More ways to get home: I live in DC metro and South Florida. I can fly to IAD/DCA/BWI/MIA/FLL/PBI from any of the 7 hubs upon arriving from Asia or if needed I can connect between hubs and get home.
  • Although the topic is on Transpacific, I find UAs transatlantic network and availability of flights work well for my half dozen European flights each year.
  • Star Alliance and RTW fares work great for me on those RTW business trips
  • Being a long time 1K and GS also helps and M+ is still a great program.
  • Familiarity is important. When one travels so much, I just want to get home and work with minimum fuss about which wine airlines serves on particular flight or if the FA smiles more. They are good to have but when I book my flights, they are not the most important factors. I just flew JAL yesterday. It is fine, but dont understand how it can be a urban legend as told by certain FTers.
  • Dont understand the fuss about Asian airlines. Yes, I love EVA, but cannot understand the fascination absout ANA at all (probably my last choice other than the Chines airlines in * A). I also fly SQ enough to earn PPS for eight consecutive years now. They are just airlines. I pick them because they have better schedule for me or destinations UA dont serve. More than 1/3 of my annual 400K+ BIS are on non-UA *A airlines, so I think I have a reasonable basis to determine what works for me and what does not trigger me to choose certain airlines over others.

I understand OP is only looking at one single destination (Japan), and a single route LAX-NRT and a single seat configuration (2-4-2), but I caution drawing conclusion based on limited criteria and experience.





Last edited by UA_Flyer; Oct 15, 2018 at 12:22 am
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Old Oct 14, 2018, 5:38 pm
  #24  
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Originally Posted by Kacee
Can you cite the statistics you are relying on for this assertion?
go to expertflyer and find out yourself
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Old Oct 14, 2018, 6:12 pm
  #25  
 
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Originally Posted by AndyPatterson
Had to stop-and-think about this one. SFO and LAX are obvious; I don't know about Chicago's population composition. I assume you consider EWR to be a hub "at the 4 largest cities in the nation" which is close (to Wall Street) but otherwise "no cigar!"
Houston.
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Old Oct 14, 2018, 7:07 pm
  #26  
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Originally Posted by mduell
Easiest upgrades? Best corp discounts?

If you've got the worst product, you can still fill the cabin with price.
This!
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Old Oct 14, 2018, 9:50 pm
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Often1
It is well priced for large corporate contracts which are the "engine" which drives TPAC traffic. There is a large and healthy route network with many options. The thread count of the hot towels isn't a major factor outside of FT.
but don't AA/DL also have contracts with large corps?

Originally Posted by glbltvlr
I think you also need to take into account the J seat reduction from the withdrawal of the 747-400s. It takes time for competitors to adjust and for customers to consider alternatives.
True, but when ANA and JAL introduced their retrofit 773 it also resulted in a huge loss in J seats. Even AA's retrofit and introduction of 787s resulted in premium seats loss. But their loading seems just about right

Originally Posted by CDSEA
I think the post below sum it up perfectly. UA has a large network with lots of codeshare partners and is hubbed in some of the largest and most corporate travel focused cites in the US. The reality is that most people flying for work are paying the most and aren't "business class enthusiasts". They care about time, their miles, and not a lot else.
Both DL and AA also have large networks, and AA has JL to help in Asia too while DL just contracted with KE.

Originally Posted by STVA
I fly to NRT for work and find that the United often has the cheapest J prices.

As others have said, the 2-4-2 configuration on the ORD 777s sucks. I know it is being phased out, but I flew on one last month. I was sitting next to a larger passenger and bumped into him a few times while we were both in our seats. I expect that in Y, but not in a multi thousand dollar J seat.
but from what i see at least for point to point like NRT-LAX, maybe because of the joint venture, UA always has the same price as ANA, which I found ridiculous.

Originally Posted by jasondc
Because the majority of the people in those seats are business travelers and theyre paying for a convenient schedule. Their employers are likely paying for it and many of those employers have negotiated discounted prices in exchange for a certain volume. Im in DC and I know a lot of people who travel to London Monday- Friday every week for work, paying j fares of $10k-$13k toundtrip for work. They get on the plane in dc fall asleep then wake up in London and go to work. They dont care about all the stuff people complain about endlessly here, and the ua seats, even the dreaded 2-4-2 , are comfortable and enable sleep. These are the people who drive the paid j business. Not those who come here and complain endlessly about certain service standards while traveling on upgrades or deep discounted j class tix.
i think schedule wise, every carrier has similar ones at least for all US carriers because of the consideration for transfer passengers and aircraft arrangement. And the 2-4-2 seat, which unfortunately, is the least comfortable and has least privacy when compared to anyone else. I don't know about transatlantic price but for pacific route, $10k is way too high for business class even to Tokyo

Originally Posted by username
I think it is a combination of corporate contracts, route network, MileagePlus (not the program itself is necessarily better but it ties you to UA ) and Star Alliance.

Product-wise, with real Polaris, I think they just need to make sure there is consistent good service and better food to actually be above most of the competition. Unfortunately, if they cared about these things, they would have done it already.
But the problem is except for not in star alliance, DL and AA should have everything else that UA has, plus providing reasonable hard products and in most cases, reasonable service/meal too.

Originally Posted by mduell
Easiest upgrades? Best corp discounts?

If you've got the worst product, you can still fill the cabin with price.
but per the joint venture, UA's price is always the same as ANA

Last edited by WineCountryUA; Oct 14, 2018 at 11:39 pm Reason: merging consecutive posts by same member; please use multi-quote
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Old Oct 14, 2018, 10:44 pm
  #28  
 
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Originally Posted by doglynx
Both DL and AA also have large networks, and AA has JL to help in Asia too while DL just contracted with KE.
Based on data here, UA has by far the most TPAC ASM. I would also argue that NH has more connecting feed than JL/KE. TYO/ICN-SIN for example has 4x NH, 2x JL, 1x DL, and 2x KE flights. UA/NH are offering more schedule options that business travelers want.

Originally Posted by doglynx
but per the joint venture, UA's price is always the same as ANA
That is not necessarily true, there are still fares UA or NH can file to have lower prices. That does not mean revenue will not be shared and that you can't fly on the other's metal.

Originally Posted by doglynx
i think schedule wise, every carrier has similar ones at least for all US carriers because of the consideration for transfer passengers and aircraft arrangement. And the 2-4-2 seat, which unfortunately, is the least comfortable and has least privacy when compared to anyone else. I don't know about transatlantic price but for pacific route, $10k is way too high for business class even to Tokyo
Just because you think it's too high or that the 2-4-2 configuration does not justify the price doesn't mean others won't pay and fly it, if getting to the destination is important enough. A lot of this is due to capacity and yield management. In markets such as ORD-TYO, *A has a lot more J seats than OW (144J vs. 77J) and not every business traveler is willing to connect or backtrack just for a better seat.
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Old Oct 15, 2018, 6:47 am
  #29  
 
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Loading is as high as Ive ever seen it on ORD-PVG. Third time this year it looks like Im the number one loser for the Y-C upgrade on westbound. Of course with gate upgrades and no-shows its still possible today. Good thingin PE aisle seat. Feel sorry for my neighbor who may have to climb over me as Im going to sleep like a log.
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Old Oct 15, 2018, 8:55 am
  #30  
 
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I agree with the OP. For me out of NRT/HND to the US or SCL/EZE usually UA fares are on business class are higher than AA by at least 10-20%. I have figured out to buy out of ICN with much lower fares, then buying a roundtrip ticket to Seoul. Last month I had to do 2 trips from HND to SCL, finally gave up trying to buy UA and bought CX/LA out of HKG way cheaper on Z (UA charging NRT-IAH-SCL around $ 8,000 and CX/LA around $ 5,300 HND-HKG + HKG-SYD-SCL all business class). I think pricing from Japan is way higher than other airports in Asia. LH does the same thing and finally I end up booking out of ICN at least 30% cheaper than out of HND to FRA. Just my experience.
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