United lying about flight delay {sitting on runway, phone agent not seeing delay}
Jun 4, 2018, 12:11 pm
#31
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Or do you mean the computer doesn't lie?
Jun 4, 2018, 12:15 pm
#32
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Jun 4, 2018, 1:06 pm
#33
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When an airplane is waiting for an ATC release it can be difficult to predict when it will takeoff. A flight could be delayed under a call-for-release, EDCT, or ground-stop.
Call-for-release is for flights into congested airports from nearby airports. IND-ORD, for example. Everytime a flight taxis out the controller calls for a release time. The delay, if any, in usually short and is not known until the airplane taxis.
EDCT is Expect Departure Clearance Time. When an airport is scheduled over capacity (for the current weather and runway configuration) the airport is put into a ground delay program (GDP). Flights departing from the specified regions will receive an EDCT time. EDCT times are often changed by ATC as conditions and traffic changes. Airlines can also shuffle their EDCT arrival slots between different flights for various operational reasons. i.e. prioritizing flights with more passengers, international connections, or crews that are closer to timing out.
If the congestion exceeds the ability of a GDP a ground-stop (GS) can be issued. During a GS, no flights are allowed to depart and no EDCTs are issued. The GS has an "update" time and a probability of extension but that's it. Nobody knows when the GS will be lifted, only that an update will be published at, or before, the specified update time.
You can see active GDPs, GSs, and other related information real-time at this link.
https://www.fly.faa.gov/ois/
Mainline flights have the ability to send an expected off time via ACARS. Express aircraft probably don't have that function so would have to pass it on to their dispatcher and they'd have to enter it. The problem is, what do you enter when even the pilots don't know when they will be able to takeoff?
We need better IT both at the airlines and at the FAA. The FAA needs to develop systems which can give the airlines better information about when a flight will be able to go and the airlines need better systems for taking that data and pushing it "downline" in a logical manner. i.e. not OFF yet means it can't get there until NOW + enroute time and all the cascading delays that this will cause on later flights for the airplane and crew.
Jun 4, 2018, 1:47 pm
#34
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"San Francisco metering, United xxx ... you have an expected time for us to push? We'll be ready to go in 10 or 15 minutes"
"United xxx ... call me back when you are ready to push and I can give you a time."
"Metering, we're.. uh.. ready to go right now actually."
"Okay, your release time will be xx past the hour [something 25 minutes in the future and consistent with the other assignments]"
Jun 4, 2018, 2:14 pm
#35
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Doors open or brakes off is the measure for arrival.
Wheels up - wheels down is not part of the schedule: just information for those who need to know:- flight crew, dispatchers and the like.
Not for gate agents. When the door is closed the GA's job is done. Onto the next flight
Last edited by Mwenenzi; Jun 4, 2018 at 2:32 pm
Jun 4, 2018, 2:30 pm
#36
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Here we have the issue of when does a flight actually leave? If the airline says it has left because it has left the gate, when you are sitting on the tarmac for an hour and a half, waiting for wheels up, then any reasonable person would say that the flight has in fact not yet left.
The twofold problem is this:
(a) How to make phone agents understand what's going on. It's quite ridiculous that the phone agents can't check up on Flightaware, or similar, to see the status of the plane, if the airline's own system cannot see that the plane is still parked at a holding apron. That's what I'd ask them to do.
(b) Gate agents book a flight out when it leaves the gate. They don't hang around to see whether it actually takes off. IMO this needs to change. Gate agents should be "responsible" for the flight until it physically departs, even if they are handling subsequent departures. Otherwise you get the scenario (as happened to a friend of mine recently) when the last flight of the day is delayed taking off, and eventually returns to the gate and is canceled because of a mechanical. Long before then, the gate agents have packed up and gone home, and there is no one left at the airport to service the passengers' overnight needs and get their luggage back, let alone rebook them the following day.
The twofold problem is this:
(a) How to make phone agents understand what's going on. It's quite ridiculous that the phone agents can't check up on Flightaware, or similar, to see the status of the plane, if the airline's own system cannot see that the plane is still parked at a holding apron. That's what I'd ask them to do.
(b) Gate agents book a flight out when it leaves the gate. They don't hang around to see whether it actually takes off. IMO this needs to change. Gate agents should be "responsible" for the flight until it physically departs, even if they are handling subsequent departures. Otherwise you get the scenario (as happened to a friend of mine recently) when the last flight of the day is delayed taking off, and eventually returns to the gate and is canceled because of a mechanical. Long before then, the gate agents have packed up and gone home, and there is no one left at the airport to service the passengers' overnight needs and get their luggage back, let alone rebook them the following day.
Last edited by fastair; Jun 4, 2018 at 3:44 pm
Jun 4, 2018, 2:52 pm
#37
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The only way an agent knows if an airplane has departed is by looking at the FLIFO (posted above) in the computer and seeing an "OFF" time.
When an airplane is waiting for an ATC release it can be difficult to predict when it will takeoff. A flight could be delayed under a call-for-release, EDCT, or ground-stop.
Call-for-release is for flights into congested airports from nearby airports. IND-ORD, for example. Everytime a flight taxis out the controller calls for a release time. The delay, if any, in usually short and is not known until the airplane taxis.
EDCT is Expect Departure Clearance Time. When an airport is scheduled over capacity (for the current weather and runway configuration) the airport is put into a ground delay program (GDP). Flights departing from the specified regions will receive an EDCT time. EDCT times are often changed by ATC as conditions and traffic changes. Airlines can also shuffle their EDCT arrival slots between different flights for various operational reasons. i.e. prioritizing flights with more passengers, international connections, or crews that are closer to timing out.
If the congestion exceeds the ability of a GDP a ground-stop (GS) can be issued. During a GS, no flights are allowed to depart and no EDCTs are issued. The GS has an "update" time and a probability of extension but that's it. Nobody knows when the GS will be lifted, only that an update will be published at, or before, the specified update time.
You can see active GDPs, GSs, and other related information real-time at this link.
https://www.fly.faa.gov/ois/
Mainline flights have the ability to send an expected off time via ACARS. Express aircraft probably don't have that function so would have to pass it on to their dispatcher and they'd have to enter it. The problem is, what do you enter when even the pilots don't know when they will be able to takeoff?
We need better IT both at the airlines and at the FAA. The FAA needs to develop systems which can give the airlines better information about when a flight will be able to go and the airlines need better systems for taking that data and pushing it "downline" in a logical manner. i.e. not OFF yet means it can't get there until NOW + enroute time and all the cascading delays that this will cause on later flights for the airplane and crew.
When an airplane is waiting for an ATC release it can be difficult to predict when it will takeoff. A flight could be delayed under a call-for-release, EDCT, or ground-stop.
Call-for-release is for flights into congested airports from nearby airports. IND-ORD, for example. Everytime a flight taxis out the controller calls for a release time. The delay, if any, in usually short and is not known until the airplane taxis.
EDCT is Expect Departure Clearance Time. When an airport is scheduled over capacity (for the current weather and runway configuration) the airport is put into a ground delay program (GDP). Flights departing from the specified regions will receive an EDCT time. EDCT times are often changed by ATC as conditions and traffic changes. Airlines can also shuffle their EDCT arrival slots between different flights for various operational reasons. i.e. prioritizing flights with more passengers, international connections, or crews that are closer to timing out.
If the congestion exceeds the ability of a GDP a ground-stop (GS) can be issued. During a GS, no flights are allowed to depart and no EDCTs are issued. The GS has an "update" time and a probability of extension but that's it. Nobody knows when the GS will be lifted, only that an update will be published at, or before, the specified update time.
You can see active GDPs, GSs, and other related information real-time at this link.
https://www.fly.faa.gov/ois/
Mainline flights have the ability to send an expected off time via ACARS. Express aircraft probably don't have that function so would have to pass it on to their dispatcher and they'd have to enter it. The problem is, what do you enter when even the pilots don't know when they will be able to takeoff?
We need better IT both at the airlines and at the FAA. The FAA needs to develop systems which can give the airlines better information about when a flight will be able to go and the airlines need better systems for taking that data and pushing it "downline" in a logical manner. i.e. not OFF yet means it can't get there until NOW + enroute time and all the cascading delays that this will cause on later flights for the airplane and crew.
Jun 4, 2018, 3:03 pm
#38
Join Date: Sep 2008
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You can't blame everything on technology (well, you can, but that gets you nowhere). As of now, people are still in charge of the technology.
Jun 4, 2018, 3:13 pm
#39
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Forget it Jake, it's LGA. I can't count the number of times my DCA-LGA flight pulled out of the gate on-time and then parked near the end of the runway because LGA wasn't accepting flights due to traffic/weather/miscellaneous.
Jun 4, 2018, 3:50 pm
#40
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It's really not that complicated. But thanks for your valuable addition to the thread.
Jun 4, 2018, 4:02 pm
#41
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We need better IT both at the airlines and at the FAA. The FAA needs to develop systems which can give the airlines better information about when a flight will be able to go and the airlines need better systems for taking that data and pushing it "downline" in a logical manner. i.e. not OFF yet means it can't get there until NOW + enroute time and all the cascading delays that this will cause on later flights for the airplane and crew.
Jun 4, 2018, 4:06 pm
#42
Join Date: Feb 2012
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I completely understand United really has no control over ATC delays.
But what frustrates me is (usually at smaller outstations) when flying to hub a flight may pushback 10 minutes late but causes them to miss their ATC window to fly into a busy city causing them a 30-60 min delay getting re-sequenced.
They will blame ATC for the delay and not the initial United's fault pushing back late.
But what frustrates me is (usually at smaller outstations) when flying to hub a flight may pushback 10 minutes late but causes them to miss their ATC window to fly into a busy city causing them a 30-60 min delay getting re-sequenced.
They will blame ATC for the delay and not the initial United's fault pushing back late.
Jun 4, 2018, 5:59 pm
#43
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 7,875
This is basically "alternative facts" or whatever you want to call it. You can call it "slow updating" but if you put a stock trade in and the "computer" delayed it by a few minutes and the stock price changed drastically, is that a big deal? According to you no.
Jun 4, 2018, 8:38 pm
#44
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Actually, it is. Sometimes your flight shows on-time. But you are sitting on the plane and it isn't leaving.
This is basically "alternative facts" or whatever you want to call it. You can call it "slow updating" but if you put a stock trade in and the "computer" delayed it by a few minutes and the stock price changed drastically, is that a big deal? According to you no.
This is basically "alternative facts" or whatever you want to call it. You can call it "slow updating" but if you put a stock trade in and the "computer" delayed it by a few minutes and the stock price changed drastically, is that a big deal? According to you no.
The only point of contention is whether or not the word 'lying' applies as a description of the phone agent's response. If the phone agent knew what was happening but would not acknowledge it, then the agent was lying; but if the agent saw an incomplete summary and unwittingly came to the wrong conclusion, the agent was not lying.
Nobody disagrees that it is not good that the computer systems don't fully reflect or communicate what is happening with the flight.
Jun 4, 2018, 8:42 pm
#45
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Actually, it is. Sometimes your flight shows on-time. But you are sitting on the plane and it isn't leaving.
This is basically "alternative facts" or whatever you want to call it. You can call it "slow updating" but if you put a stock trade in and the "computer" delayed it by a few minutes and the stock price changed drastically, is that a big deal? According to you no.
This is basically "alternative facts" or whatever you want to call it. You can call it "slow updating" but if you put a stock trade in and the "computer" delayed it by a few minutes and the stock price changed drastically, is that a big deal? According to you no.