Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Miles&Points > Airlines and Mileage Programs > United Airlines | MileagePlus
Reload this Page >

Man pulled off of overbooked flight UA3411 (ORD-SDF) 9 Apr 2017 {Settlement reached}

Community
Wiki Posts
Search
Old Apr 10, 2017, 8:42 pm
FlyerTalk Forums Expert How-Tos and Guides
Last edit by: WineCountryUA
WELCOME, THREAD GUIDELINES and SUMMARY PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING

If you are new to us, welcome to FlyerTalk! Who we are: FlyerTalk features discussions and chat boards that cover the most up-to-date traveler information; an interactive community dedicated to the topic of travel (not politics or arguments about politics or religion, etc. – those discussion are best in the OMNI forum)

The incident discussed in this thread has touched a nerve for many, and many posters are passionate about their opinions and concerns. However we should still have a civil and respectful discussion of this topic. This is because FlyerTalk is meant to be a friendly, helpful, and collegial community. (Rule 12.)

1. The normal FlyerTalk Rules apply. (Including not discussing moderation actions in thread). Please be particularly attentive to "discussing the idea and not the poster" when you have a disagreement. Civility and mutual respect are still expected and are what we owe each other as a community.

2. You are expected to respect the FlyerTalk community's diversity, and therefore refrain from posting inflammatory comments about race, religion, culture, politics, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc. Do not cite, copy, or report on such.

3. While you can disagree with an opinion, the holder of that opinion has the same right to their opinion as you have to yours. We request all to respect that and disagree or discuss their point of views without getting overly personal and without attacking the other poster(s). This is expected as a requirement in FT Rule 12.

4. Overly exaggerative posts as well as posts with information that has been posted several times previously may be summarily deleted.

5. In addition, those who repeatedly fail to comply with FlyerTalk Rules, may be subjected to FlyerTalk disciplinary actions and, e.g., have membership privileges suspended, or masked from this forum.

If you have questions about the Rules or concerns about what another has posted in this or other threads in this forum, please do not post about that. Rather, notify the moderators by using the alert symbol within each post or email or send a private message to us moderators.

Let’s have this discussion in a way that, when we look back on it, we can be proud of how we handled ourselves as a community.

The United Moderator team:
J.Edward
l'etoile
Ocn Vw 1K
Pat89339
WineCountryUA

N.B. PLEASE do not alter the contents of this moderator note
Statement from United Airlines Regarding Resolution with Dr. David Dao - released 27 April 2017
CHICAGO, April 27, 2017 /PRNewswire/ -- We are pleased to report that United and Dr. Dao have reached an amicable resolution of the unfortunate incident that occurred aboard flight 3411. We look forward to implementing the improvements we have announced, which will put our customers at the center of everything we do.
DOT findings related to the UA3411 9 April 2017 IDB incident 12 May 2017

What facts do we know?
  • UA3411, operated by Republic Airways, ORD-SDF on Sunday, April 9, 2017. UA3411 was the second to last flight to SDF for United. AA3509 and UA4771 were the two remaining departures for the day. Also, AA and DL had connecting options providing for same-day arrival in SDF.
  • After the flight was fully boarded, United determined four seats were needed to accommodate crew to SDF for a flight on Monday.
  • United solicited volunteers for VDB. (BUT stopped at $800 in UA$s, not cash). Chose not to go to the levels such as 1350 that airlines have been known to go even in case of weather impacted disruption)
  • After receiving no volunteers for $800 vouchers, a passenger volunteered for $1,600 and was "laughed at" and refused, United determined four passengers to be removed from the flight.
  • One passenger refused and Chicago Aviation Security Officers were called to forcibly remove the passenger.
  • The passenger hit the armrest in the aisle and received a concussion, a broken nose, a bloodied lip, and the loss of two teeth.
  • After being removed from the plane, the passenger re-boarded saying "I need to go home" repeatedly, before being removed again.
  • United spokesman Jonathan Guerin said the flight was sold out — but not oversold. Instead, United and regional affiliate Republic Airlines – the unit that operated Flight 3411 – decided they had to remove four passengers from the flight to accommodate crewmembers who were needed in Louisville the next day for a “downline connection.”

United Express Flight 3411 Review and Action Report - released 27 April 2017

Videos

Internal Communication by Oscar Munoz
Oscar Munoz sent an internal communication to UA employees (sources: View From The Wing, Chicago Tribune):
Dear Team,

Like you, I was upset to see and hear about what happened last night aboard United Express Flight 3411 headed from Chicago to Louisville. While the facts and circumstances are still evolving, especially with respect to why this customer defied Chicago Aviation Security Officers the way he did, to give you a clearer picture of what transpired, I've included below a recap from the preliminary reports filed by our employees.

As you will read, this situation was unfortunately compounded when one of the passengers we politely asked to deplane refused and it became necessary to contact Chicago Aviation Security Officers to help. Our employees followed established procedures for dealing with situations like this. While I deeply regret this situation arose, I also emphatically stand behind all of you, and I want to commend you for continuing to go above and beyond to ensure we fly right.

I do, however, believe there are lessons we can learn from this experience, and we are taking a close look at the circumstances surrounding this incident. Treating our customers and each other with respect and dignity is at the core of who we are, and we must always remember this no matter how challenging the situation.

Oscar

Summary of Flight 3411
  • On Sunday, April 9, after United Express Flight 3411 was fully boarded, United's gate agents were approached by crewmembers that were told they needed to board the flight.
  • We sought volunteers and then followed our involuntary denial of boarding process (including offering up to $1,000 in compensation) and when we approached one of these passengers to explain apologetically that he was being denied boarding, he raised his voice and refused to comply with crew member instructions.
  • He was approached a few more times after that in order to gain his compliance to come off the aircraft, and each time he refused and became more and more disruptive and belligerent.
  • Our agents were left with no choice but to call Chicago Aviation Security Officers to assist in removing the customer from the flight. He repeatedly declined to leave.
  • Chicago Aviation Security Officers were unable to gain his cooperation and physically removed him from the flight as he continued to resist - running back onto the aircraft in defiance of both our crew and security officials.
Email sent to all employees at 2:08PM on Tuesday, April 11.
Dear Team,

The truly horrific event that occurred on this flight has elicited many responses from all of us: outrage, anger, disappointment. I share all of those sentiments, and one above all: my deepest apologies for what happened. Like you, I continue to be disturbed by what happened on this flight and I deeply apologize to the customer forcibly removed and to all the customers aboard. No one should ever be mistreated this way.

I want you to know that we take full responsibility and we will work to make it right.

It’s never too late to do the right thing. I have committed to our customers and our employees that we are going to fix what’s broken so this never happens again. This will include a thorough review of crew movement, our policies for incentivizing volunteers in these situations, how we handle oversold situations and an examination of how we partner with airport authorities and local law enforcement. We’ll communicate the results of our review by April 30th.

I promise you we will do better.

Sincerely,

Oscar
Statement to customers - 27 April 2017
Each flight you take with us represents an important promise we make to you, our customer. It's not simply that we make sure you reach your destination safely and on time, but also that you will be treated with the highest level of service and the deepest sense of dignity and respect.

Earlier this month, we broke that trust when a passenger was forcibly removed from one of our planes. We can never say we are sorry enough for what occurred, but we also know meaningful actions will speak louder than words.

For the past several weeks, we have been urgently working to answer two questions: How did this happen, and how can we do our best to ensure this never happens again?

It happened because our corporate policies were placed ahead of our shared values. Our procedures got in the way of our employees doing what they know is right.

Fixing that problem starts now with changing how we fly, serve and respect our customers. This is a turning point for all of us here at United – and as CEO, it's my responsibility to make sure that we learn from this experience and redouble our efforts to put our customers at the center of everything we do.

That’s why we announced that we will no longer ask law enforcement to remove customers from a flight and customers will not be required to give up their seat once on board – except in matters of safety or security.

We also know that despite our best efforts, when things don’t go the way they should, we need to be there for you to make things right. There are several new ways we’re going to do just that.

We will increase incentives for voluntary rebooking up to $10,000 and will be eliminating the red tape on permanently lost bags with a new "no-questions-asked" $1,500 reimbursement policy. We will also be rolling out a new app for our employees that will enable them to provide on-the-spot goodwill gestures in the form of miles, travel credit and other amenities when your experience with us misses the mark. You can learn more about these commitments and many other changes at hub.united.com.

While these actions are important, I have found myself reflecting more broadly on the role we play and the responsibilities we have to you and the communities we serve.

I believe we must go further in redefining what United's corporate citizenship looks like in our society. If our chief good as a company is only getting you to and from your destination, that would show a lack of moral imagination on our part. You can and ought to expect more from us, and we intend to live up to those higher expectations in the way we embody social responsibility and civic leadership everywhere we operate. I hope you will see that pledge express itself in our actions going forward, of which these initial, though important, changes are merely a first step.

Our goal should be nothing less than to make you truly proud to say, "I fly United."

Ultimately, the measure of our success is your satisfaction and the past several weeks have moved us to go further than ever before in elevating your experience with us. I know our 87,000 employees have taken this message to heart, and they are as energized as ever to fulfill our promise to serve you better with each flight and earn the trust you’ve given us.

We are working harder than ever for the privilege to serve you and I know we will be stronger, better and the customer-focused airline you expect and deserve.

With Great Gratitude,

Oscar Munoz
CEO
United Airlines
Aftermath
Poll: Your Opinion of United Airlines Reference Material

UA's Customer Commitment says:
Occasionally we may not be able to provide you with a seat on a specific flight, even if you hold a ticket, have checked in, are present to board on time, and comply with other requirements. This is called an oversale, and occurs when restrictions apply to operating a particular flight safely (such as aircraft weight limits); when we have to substitute a smaller aircraft in place of a larger aircraft that was originally scheduled; or if more customers have checked in and are prepared to board than we have available seats.

If your flight is in an oversale situation, you will not be denied a seat until we first ask for volunteers willing to give up their confirmed seats. If there are not enough volunteers, we will deny boarding to passengers in accordance with our written policy on boarding priority. If you are involuntarily denied boarding and have complied with our check-in and other applicable rules, we will give you a written statement that describes your rights and explains how we determine boarding priority for an oversold flight. You will generally be entitled to compensation and transportation on an alternate flight.

We make complete rules for the payment of compensation, as well as our policy about boarding priorities, available at airports we serve. We will follow these rules to ensure you are treated fairly. Please be aware that you may be denied boarding without compensation if you do not check in on time or do not meet certain other requirements, or if we offer you alternative transportation that is planned to arrive at your destination or first stopover no later than one hour after the planned arrival time of your original flight.
CoC is here: https://www.united.com/web/en-US/con...-carriage.aspx
Print Wikipost

Man pulled off of overbooked flight UA3411 (ORD-SDF) 9 Apr 2017 {Settlement reached}

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old Apr 12, 2017, 2:50 pm
  #4321  
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 813
Originally Posted by cerealmarketer
I doubt this will ever go to court (settled for a jackpot sum instead).

Ironically one of the people who filmed the incident felt he 'resisted' and 'brought that on himself'. I was under the impression everyone on the flight speaking publicly was fully supportive of the victim.

http://www.wave3.com/story/35111099/...-united-flight

Still not clear what transpired in the 20 or so minutes before the police arrived, nor on that jetway. Not sure it will ever come out if it's settled the way Disney handled the child who was killed by an alligator.
Interesting tidbit from the article that says UA bumped @3700 pax last year but they fail to mention that was out of @ 85million total pax...shoddy or intentionally incomplete reporting.....
featheroleather is offline  
Old Apr 12, 2017, 2:51 pm
  #4322  
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Nawthun Virginia
Programs: Air: UA (Gold), AA, WN, DL; Hotel: Hilton (Diamond), plus all the rest
Posts: 135
The management principle

Here's the problem: the gate agent and her supervisors were following what they thought was a sanctioned process, instead of being empowered to and measured by the outcomes of what they do. They believed if if they followed the process, they would be protected no matter how bad the outcome.

If, on the other hand, they were measured not only by process following, but also by a relevant customer-satisfaction metric (that is closer to the situation and to the satisfaction objective than the surveys that clutter my inbox), they would have cared that this did not turn out badly.

Combining the opacity of outcomes with the disempowerment to find the market for volunteers with the apparently cooperative access to police powers leads inevitably to finding a customer who simply refuses to be railroaded. This is what happens.

"I don't care what process you followed, you knew or should have known that calling the police would very likely lead to a confrontation that would delay the flight, risk negative publicity, and work against the reputation of this company. You should have worked harder to find volunteers." Such statements can be delivered to any customer-facing employee. I've heard and I've made such statements

I fault the manager as much as the GA. The manager should have the flexibility to consider outcomes, especially at a major hub airport, and find positive solutions.

I would have thought that absent a safety issue, the highest-ranking employee on duty at the airport would have been at the scene, making outcome-oriented decisions, before cops would be called (or before they arrived.).

Clearly, the focus was on justification, not resolution. The notes in the DNA state what is clearly not the case from the abundant evidence presented at the scene--that Dao struck the officer or that he was belligerent. Muņoz was probably going with that and the percentages with his first public statement. Thus, he was trapped by the culture United has established.
Rdenney is offline  
Old Apr 12, 2017, 2:55 pm
  #4323  
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 813
more video today from the seat right behind the "dr" showing the cops urging the pax to disembark. I'm not condoning how they handled it minutes later was okay, but this sheds some new light on the total big picture.
featheroleather is offline  
Old Apr 12, 2017, 2:59 pm
  #4324  
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: YYZ/YTZ/YUL
Programs: BA Gold, TK Elite
Posts: 1,558
Originally Posted by featheroleather
more video today from the seat right behind the "dr" showing the cops urging the pax to disembark. I'm not condoning how they handled it minutes later was okay, but this sheds some new light on the total big picture.
Yes. It's getting increasingly clear that the passenger posed no threat to anybody and was not belligerent (contrary to Mr Munoz's assertions).

So we're falling back to the "officers" involved attempting to enforce the local UA staff's interpretation of a civil contract, using unrestrained violence.
TravellingSalesman is offline  
Old Apr 12, 2017, 3:05 pm
  #4325  
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 143
Originally Posted by featheroleather
more video today from the seat right behind the "dr" showing the cops urging the pax to disembark. I'm not condoning how they handled it minutes later was okay, but this sheds some new light on the total big picture.
It sure does. That the passenger was lucid and calm, that the cop was, literally, threatening him with dragging off the airplane, and that there wasn't even a pretense of legality about the threat of the use of force against the passenger. It was simply "This company wants you gone and I'm going to make you gone." It was the statement of a bouncer, not a commissioned LEO.
George Purcell is offline  
Old Apr 12, 2017, 3:07 pm
  #4326  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Chicagoland, IL, USA
Programs: WN CP, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 14,192
Limbaugh is worth hundreds of millions of dollars. You think he could be bribed for $100K?

It's like you betraying your deeply held principles for $20. Think, dude.
toomanybooks is offline  
Old Apr 12, 2017, 3:08 pm
  #4327  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: USA
Programs: Delta
Posts: 43
Here we go
Reuters: United passenger launches legal action over forceful removal
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-ua...-idUSKBN17E1GN
NotSoOftenFlyer is offline  
Old Apr 12, 2017, 3:11 pm
  #4328  
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 350
Originally Posted by featheroleather
more video today from the seat right behind the "dr" showing the cops urging the pax to disembark. I'm not condoning how they handled it minutes later was okay, but this sheds some new light on the total big picture.
Link?
deskover54 is offline  
Old Apr 12, 2017, 3:12 pm
  #4329  
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 125
Originally Posted by NotSoOftenFlyer
Here we go
Reuters: United passenger launches legal action over forceful removal
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-ua...-idUSKBN17E1GN
"It's not a question, in my opinion, as to whether you overbook," Bastian said on a Wednesday earnings call. "It's how you manage an overbook situation."

Clearly the industry is beyond incompetent at managing the overbooking situation. sheesh.
Klimo is offline  
Old Apr 12, 2017, 3:14 pm
  #4330  
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: LIT
Programs: Blinged Out
Posts: 716
Please see updated wiki for links to videos, including the newest video from behind the passenger before he was dragged off.
SeaHawg is online now  
Old Apr 12, 2017, 3:18 pm
  #4331  
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: YYC
Programs: BA bronze, Aeroplan peon
Posts: 4,746
Originally Posted by Kacee
Actually, industry usage is highly relevant to contract interpretation and will typically trump both of those interpretive canons. For instance, California Civil Code § 1644 says:

The words of a contract are to be understood in their ordinary and popular sense, rather than according to their strict legal meaning; unless used by the parties in a technical sense, or unless a special meaning is given to them by usage, in which case the latter must be followed.
Does that apply to all parties? I have seen different interpretations vary by the sophistication of the parties to the contract. For example, are both parties large corporations in the same field who would understand industry specific terms? In that case I could see a court agreeing to the narrower definition.

However, if one of the parties is the general public; could they reasonably be expected to know terms that have acquired specific meanings within the industry? In that regard wouldn't the ordinary meaning of a term prevail?
Jagboi is offline  
Old Apr 12, 2017, 3:26 pm
  #4332  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: USA
Programs: Delta
Posts: 43
Can anyone confirm something TMZ is reporting...looking for an online source for Chicago Dept of Aviation

2:00 PM PT -- Chicago Dept. of Aviation has placed 2 more officers on administrative leave until further notice as part of its ongoing review of the Dao incident. One had already been suspended.

http://www.tmz.com/2017/04/12/united...gged-evidence/

Only thing TMZ is good for is links to pleadings online (when they have them) otherwise yes it's a gossip site.
NotSoOftenFlyer is offline  
Old Apr 12, 2017, 3:26 pm
  #4333  
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: SF Bay Area
Programs: UA MileagePlus (Premier Gold); Hilton HHonors (Gold); Chase Ultimate Rewards; Amex Plat
Posts: 6,679
http://www.latimes.com/business/laza...412-story.html

If this is true, Muņoz is not the problem. The problem appears to be a toxic culture, probably from SMI/J.
STS-134 is offline  
Old Apr 12, 2017, 3:29 pm
  #4334  
Original Member
 
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Escondido CA USA
Programs: AS, UA, HY, Hil, Merr
Posts: 3,207
Just my opinion:

CEO should pay a penalty..(ghastly statements!)

United should announce a new policy, NO involuntary bumping, all Seat shortages in the future will be addressed with volunteers. If pieces of paper need to be passed out and people make "secret bids" or some other way to insure balance, then so be it. When, and if the cost becomes too high, then other arrangements need to be made that accommodate the passenger that will make them Happy to do an alternative. Private plane, limo or overnight accommodation in a penthouse, rebooking the next day in First, and $1,000's?.

Overbooking is an economic decision made by the airlines. I am sure the economics will not suffer materially by this policy for the rare occasion that "reasonable compensation" does not clear the imbalance.

Announcing such a policy will help UA get out of some of the trouble they are in. It will improve travel for all passengers knowing that involuntary bumping cannot happen. It will force other airlines to provide similar guarantees.
ranles is offline  
Old Apr 12, 2017, 3:30 pm
  #4335  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: USA
Programs: Delta
Posts: 43
More TMZ foo (but it might save someone making a stand from possible future injury

"United flight attendants are shocked David Dao was brutalized and bloodied because police could have prevented any injury if they had a clue about the plane they boarded.
We spoke to several United employees who say the officers should have known the armrests on those seats are movable. Remember, Dao's head slammed into the armrest, causing at least some of his injuries.
The flight attendants point out the cops could have effortlessly lifted the armrest before forcibly removing Dao ... who appeared to get hung up on the middle seat armrests before hitting the one on the aisle."

Source: http://www.tmz.com/2017/04/12/united...-dragged-cops/
NotSoOftenFlyer is offline  


Contact Us - Manage Preferences - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.