Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Miles&Points > Airlines and Mileage Programs > United Airlines | MileagePlus
Reload this Page >

Man pulled off of overbooked flight UA3411 (ORD-SDF) 9 Apr 2017 {Settlement reached}

Community
Wiki Posts
Search
Old Apr 10, 2017, 8:42 pm
FlyerTalk Forums Expert How-Tos and Guides
Last edit by: WineCountryUA
WELCOME, THREAD GUIDELINES and SUMMARY PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING

If you are new to us, welcome to FlyerTalk! Who we are: FlyerTalk features discussions and chat boards that cover the most up-to-date traveler information; an interactive community dedicated to the topic of travel (not politics or arguments about politics or religion, etc. – those discussion are best in the OMNI forum)

The incident discussed in this thread has touched a nerve for many, and many posters are passionate about their opinions and concerns. However we should still have a civil and respectful discussion of this topic. This is because FlyerTalk is meant to be a friendly, helpful, and collegial community. (Rule 12.)

1. The normal FlyerTalk Rules apply. (Including not discussing moderation actions in thread). Please be particularly attentive to "discussing the idea and not the poster" when you have a disagreement. Civility and mutual respect are still expected and are what we owe each other as a community.

2. You are expected to respect the FlyerTalk community's diversity, and therefore refrain from posting inflammatory comments about race, religion, culture, politics, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc. Do not cite, copy, or report on such.

3. While you can disagree with an opinion, the holder of that opinion has the same right to their opinion as you have to yours. We request all to respect that and disagree or discuss their point of views without getting overly personal and without attacking the other poster(s). This is expected as a requirement in FT Rule 12.

4. Overly exaggerative posts as well as posts with information that has been posted several times previously may be summarily deleted.

5. In addition, those who repeatedly fail to comply with FlyerTalk Rules, may be subjected to FlyerTalk disciplinary actions and, e.g., have membership privileges suspended, or masked from this forum.

If you have questions about the Rules or concerns about what another has posted in this or other threads in this forum, please do not post about that. Rather, notify the moderators by using the alert symbol within each post or email or send a private message to us moderators.

Let’s have this discussion in a way that, when we look back on it, we can be proud of how we handled ourselves as a community.

The United Moderator team:
J.Edward
l'etoile
Ocn Vw 1K
Pat89339
WineCountryUA

N.B. PLEASE do not alter the contents of this moderator note
Statement from United Airlines Regarding Resolution with Dr. David Dao - released 27 April 2017
CHICAGO, April 27, 2017 /PRNewswire/ -- We are pleased to report that United and Dr. Dao have reached an amicable resolution of the unfortunate incident that occurred aboard flight 3411. We look forward to implementing the improvements we have announced, which will put our customers at the center of everything we do.
DOT findings related to the UA3411 9 April 2017 IDB incident 12 May 2017

What facts do we know?
  • UA3411, operated by Republic Airways, ORD-SDF on Sunday, April 9, 2017. UA3411 was the second to last flight to SDF for United. AA3509 and UA4771 were the two remaining departures for the day. Also, AA and DL had connecting options providing for same-day arrival in SDF.
  • After the flight was fully boarded, United determined four seats were needed to accommodate crew to SDF for a flight on Monday.
  • United solicited volunteers for VDB. (BUT stopped at $800 in UA$s, not cash). Chose not to go to the levels such as 1350 that airlines have been known to go even in case of weather impacted disruption)
  • After receiving no volunteers for $800 vouchers, a passenger volunteered for $1,600 and was "laughed at" and refused, United determined four passengers to be removed from the flight.
  • One passenger refused and Chicago Aviation Security Officers were called to forcibly remove the passenger.
  • The passenger hit the armrest in the aisle and received a concussion, a broken nose, a bloodied lip, and the loss of two teeth.
  • After being removed from the plane, the passenger re-boarded saying "I need to go home" repeatedly, before being removed again.
  • United spokesman Jonathan Guerin said the flight was sold out — but not oversold. Instead, United and regional affiliate Republic Airlines – the unit that operated Flight 3411 – decided they had to remove four passengers from the flight to accommodate crewmembers who were needed in Louisville the next day for a “downline connection.”

United Express Flight 3411 Review and Action Report - released 27 April 2017

Videos

Internal Communication by Oscar Munoz
Oscar Munoz sent an internal communication to UA employees (sources: View From The Wing, Chicago Tribune):
Dear Team,

Like you, I was upset to see and hear about what happened last night aboard United Express Flight 3411 headed from Chicago to Louisville. While the facts and circumstances are still evolving, especially with respect to why this customer defied Chicago Aviation Security Officers the way he did, to give you a clearer picture of what transpired, I've included below a recap from the preliminary reports filed by our employees.

As you will read, this situation was unfortunately compounded when one of the passengers we politely asked to deplane refused and it became necessary to contact Chicago Aviation Security Officers to help. Our employees followed established procedures for dealing with situations like this. While I deeply regret this situation arose, I also emphatically stand behind all of you, and I want to commend you for continuing to go above and beyond to ensure we fly right.

I do, however, believe there are lessons we can learn from this experience, and we are taking a close look at the circumstances surrounding this incident. Treating our customers and each other with respect and dignity is at the core of who we are, and we must always remember this no matter how challenging the situation.

Oscar

Summary of Flight 3411
  • On Sunday, April 9, after United Express Flight 3411 was fully boarded, United's gate agents were approached by crewmembers that were told they needed to board the flight.
  • We sought volunteers and then followed our involuntary denial of boarding process (including offering up to $1,000 in compensation) and when we approached one of these passengers to explain apologetically that he was being denied boarding, he raised his voice and refused to comply with crew member instructions.
  • He was approached a few more times after that in order to gain his compliance to come off the aircraft, and each time he refused and became more and more disruptive and belligerent.
  • Our agents were left with no choice but to call Chicago Aviation Security Officers to assist in removing the customer from the flight. He repeatedly declined to leave.
  • Chicago Aviation Security Officers were unable to gain his cooperation and physically removed him from the flight as he continued to resist - running back onto the aircraft in defiance of both our crew and security officials.
Email sent to all employees at 2:08PM on Tuesday, April 11.
Dear Team,

The truly horrific event that occurred on this flight has elicited many responses from all of us: outrage, anger, disappointment. I share all of those sentiments, and one above all: my deepest apologies for what happened. Like you, I continue to be disturbed by what happened on this flight and I deeply apologize to the customer forcibly removed and to all the customers aboard. No one should ever be mistreated this way.

I want you to know that we take full responsibility and we will work to make it right.

It’s never too late to do the right thing. I have committed to our customers and our employees that we are going to fix what’s broken so this never happens again. This will include a thorough review of crew movement, our policies for incentivizing volunteers in these situations, how we handle oversold situations and an examination of how we partner with airport authorities and local law enforcement. We’ll communicate the results of our review by April 30th.

I promise you we will do better.

Sincerely,

Oscar
Statement to customers - 27 April 2017
Each flight you take with us represents an important promise we make to you, our customer. It's not simply that we make sure you reach your destination safely and on time, but also that you will be treated with the highest level of service and the deepest sense of dignity and respect.

Earlier this month, we broke that trust when a passenger was forcibly removed from one of our planes. We can never say we are sorry enough for what occurred, but we also know meaningful actions will speak louder than words.

For the past several weeks, we have been urgently working to answer two questions: How did this happen, and how can we do our best to ensure this never happens again?

It happened because our corporate policies were placed ahead of our shared values. Our procedures got in the way of our employees doing what they know is right.

Fixing that problem starts now with changing how we fly, serve and respect our customers. This is a turning point for all of us here at United – and as CEO, it's my responsibility to make sure that we learn from this experience and redouble our efforts to put our customers at the center of everything we do.

That’s why we announced that we will no longer ask law enforcement to remove customers from a flight and customers will not be required to give up their seat once on board – except in matters of safety or security.

We also know that despite our best efforts, when things don’t go the way they should, we need to be there for you to make things right. There are several new ways we’re going to do just that.

We will increase incentives for voluntary rebooking up to $10,000 and will be eliminating the red tape on permanently lost bags with a new "no-questions-asked" $1,500 reimbursement policy. We will also be rolling out a new app for our employees that will enable them to provide on-the-spot goodwill gestures in the form of miles, travel credit and other amenities when your experience with us misses the mark. You can learn more about these commitments and many other changes at hub.united.com.

While these actions are important, I have found myself reflecting more broadly on the role we play and the responsibilities we have to you and the communities we serve.

I believe we must go further in redefining what United's corporate citizenship looks like in our society. If our chief good as a company is only getting you to and from your destination, that would show a lack of moral imagination on our part. You can and ought to expect more from us, and we intend to live up to those higher expectations in the way we embody social responsibility and civic leadership everywhere we operate. I hope you will see that pledge express itself in our actions going forward, of which these initial, though important, changes are merely a first step.

Our goal should be nothing less than to make you truly proud to say, "I fly United."

Ultimately, the measure of our success is your satisfaction and the past several weeks have moved us to go further than ever before in elevating your experience with us. I know our 87,000 employees have taken this message to heart, and they are as energized as ever to fulfill our promise to serve you better with each flight and earn the trust you’ve given us.

We are working harder than ever for the privilege to serve you and I know we will be stronger, better and the customer-focused airline you expect and deserve.

With Great Gratitude,

Oscar Munoz
CEO
United Airlines
Aftermath
Poll: Your Opinion of United Airlines Reference Material

UA's Customer Commitment says:
Occasionally we may not be able to provide you with a seat on a specific flight, even if you hold a ticket, have checked in, are present to board on time, and comply with other requirements. This is called an oversale, and occurs when restrictions apply to operating a particular flight safely (such as aircraft weight limits); when we have to substitute a smaller aircraft in place of a larger aircraft that was originally scheduled; or if more customers have checked in and are prepared to board than we have available seats.

If your flight is in an oversale situation, you will not be denied a seat until we first ask for volunteers willing to give up their confirmed seats. If there are not enough volunteers, we will deny boarding to passengers in accordance with our written policy on boarding priority. If you are involuntarily denied boarding and have complied with our check-in and other applicable rules, we will give you a written statement that describes your rights and explains how we determine boarding priority for an oversold flight. You will generally be entitled to compensation and transportation on an alternate flight.

We make complete rules for the payment of compensation, as well as our policy about boarding priorities, available at airports we serve. We will follow these rules to ensure you are treated fairly. Please be aware that you may be denied boarding without compensation if you do not check in on time or do not meet certain other requirements, or if we offer you alternative transportation that is planned to arrive at your destination or first stopover no later than one hour after the planned arrival time of your original flight.
CoC is here: https://www.united.com/web/en-US/con...-carriage.aspx
Print Wikipost

Man pulled off of overbooked flight UA3411 (ORD-SDF) 9 Apr 2017 {Settlement reached}

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old Apr 10, 2017, 5:10 pm
  #961  
ANC
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Programs: AS MVPG, CO, NW(now DL), Flying Blue
Posts: 6,554
Originally Posted by james dean
most likely the FA was deadheading to work a flight...her flight profile would show up on the GA computer as "flight crew do not deplane"
Well I have NEVER seen VDB or IDB once people are on board and boarding and quite frankly at that point it isn't denied boarding it's more like being kicked off a flight. The GAs and managers who were running that gate need to be fired for starters
ANC is offline  
Old Apr 10, 2017, 5:10 pm
  #962  
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: DMV
Posts: 2,092
Originally Posted by homanga
Simple solution to this process to me is given that it is a known overbook situation that the IVDB list is prepopulated in the check in system. So if a flight is oversold by 5 when boarding starts you board as usual but the first 5 people on that list are held off the plane when attempting to board and asked to stand aside as the await volunteers for VDB. This prevents any episodes like today of requiring deboarding.
What if he is 'held off' the plane and then insists he needs to get on the plane and pushes past the GA? I mean technically it's the exact same issue, he'd have a paid ticket and a boarding pass. But people wouldn't side with him because someone trying to force their way *onto* an aircraft unsettles people. It's all about the optics and sounds of the video here.

I also guarantee you that if the pax in the video had applauded and there hadn't been 2 or 3 people voicing their upset about it, people would have by default sided with the airline and the story would focus on the 'erratic' passenger and wouldn't go very far.

Perception is reality.
Ber2dca is offline  
Old Apr 10, 2017, 5:10 pm
  #963  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,639
I seriously hope United pays. A lot. Like, 7~8 figures. This is indefensible. And I find it hard to believe that they didn't have a larger aircraft lying around in Chicago, given that it's one of their largest hubs. Plus how the HELL do you not figure out that that there are 4 more passengers on board than there are seats on the plane until after boarding closes? Really?

STUPIDITY ON UNITED'S PART DOES NOT, NEVER HAS, NEVER WILL CONSTITUTE AN EMERGENCY. And misplacing a crew for a SCHEDULED flight constitutes stupidity.

When I buy a plane ticket for a specific flight, it's because for one reason for another, I need/want to be at my destination in the timeframe specified by the itinerary. It's none of the airline's business why I want/need to be there. And frankly speaking, a misplaced crew in SDF isn't the passenger's problem
stupidhead is offline  
Old Apr 10, 2017, 5:12 pm
  #964  
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Programs: WN, AA, UA, DL
Posts: 1,313
Originally Posted by DrPSB
Nope, meant what I wrote. Sorry I don't have time to put up the links but I read two legal opinions on this earlier today.

Just because they've been doing it for years doesn't mean they'll win this in a civil case.

The issue was discussed in depth earlier in the forums.
Then post them. Let's see who these people are. I've seen one saying otherwise.
minnyfly is offline  
Old Apr 10, 2017, 5:13 pm
  #965  
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: YVR
Posts: 1,847
Originally Posted by Global321
$2000 per passenger would have been a heck of a lot cheaper than this PR nightmare.

Sucks to be the guy who was told to get the passenger off the plane (NOW!) and is now suspended. (Source CBS News)
Yeah, and if the passenger was indeed tasered, they obviously didn't hear about the Robert Dziekanski case at YVR. Could've been sooo much worse!
pokee is offline  
Old Apr 10, 2017, 5:14 pm
  #966  
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 304
How was the flight overbooked if every ticketed passenger had a seat?

United deserves every bit of the .... headed their way.
Will Dearborn is offline  
Old Apr 10, 2017, 5:14 pm
  #967  
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Isle of Skye, Scotland
Programs: BA gold
Posts: 3,902
Perhaps the policies might be technically correct, or it was technically a different airline company or the police's actions are their own, but the overriding feeling (or emotion) is that UA cocked up here and I have fair amount of sympathy for the guy who was dragged out semi-unconcious.

No amount of dotting the Is and crossing the Ts is going to make me feel differently and has put me off booking on a UA flight I was considering end of this month.

Last edited by WineCountryUA; Apr 10, 2017 at 5:29 pm Reason: Discuss the issues, not the poster
Stez is offline  
Old Apr 10, 2017, 5:14 pm
  #968  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Programs: UA AA MR HH B6
Posts: 1,419
also want to add that if our personnel requirements need passengers to be dragged off, may be time to get a new scheduler.
closetasfan is offline  
Old Apr 10, 2017, 5:14 pm
  #969  
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: LHR, HKG
Programs: gate lice
Posts: 315
Originally Posted by BrightlyBob
Uniteds new club class - Fight Club
I guess UA defines "volunteers" the way that the Hunger Games does.
leungy18 is offline  
Old Apr 10, 2017, 5:15 pm
  #970  
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 575
Originally Posted by George Purcell
I invite you to go read United's CoC. You will find that IDBs are allowed in an "Oversold" condition. You will find, further, that "Oversold" is defined in the CoC as there being more TICKETED passengers than seats available.

The mere fact that deadhead crews are on a flight manifest for the convenience of their employer does NOT make them ticketed passengers.
I would assume the reading of the COC would say if there are 200 seats on a plane and 4 are for deadheads, then there are 196 seats available. And if there are more ticketed passengers than 196, then they will move to VDB/IDB.

I'm not a lawyer. But if that's an incorrect interpretation, then I would personally change my views of the situation.
flyerbaby19 is offline  
Old Apr 10, 2017, 5:15 pm
  #971  
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: SFO
Programs: UA 1MM, Marriott LT Plat, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 184
Originally Posted by olouie
The best offer I have witnessed was a $1000 from SJC to Austin on WN. I had a meeting so could not take it, but when I arrived in Austin meeting was cancelled. The lucky guy who got it must have been loving life.
$500 plus F from ORD-SFO to give up my Y seat.
Ronlap is offline  
Old Apr 10, 2017, 5:16 pm
  #972  
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 259
Originally Posted by findark
As far as I can tell, UA played this absolutely 100% by the book.
Yes, up to the point they decide to escalate to the police to violently enforce what is in essence a commercial arrangement. Why does the police always and AUTOMATICALLY take the side of the airline and rarely the passenger? Did the police even consider both viewpoints?

In the UK (and I realise things may be different in the US), if I leave my house and someone comes in and squats in my house, the police won't help me drive him/her out. I have to sort this out in the courts. Problematic and very unpleasant? Yes, but this is a civil matter, not a criminal matter (i.e. the squatter is not assaulting me).

Last edited by WineCountryUA; Apr 10, 2017 at 5:32 pm Reason: Quote updated to reflect Moderator edit
simpletastes is offline  
Old Apr 10, 2017, 5:16 pm
  #973  
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: YVR TLS
Programs: Air France Flying Blue, Altitude SE-100k, AAdvantage, United Mileage Plus, WS rewards, BonVoy Titan
Posts: 913
Originally Posted by ANC
Well I have NEVER seen VDB or IDB once people are on board and boarding and quite frankly at that point it isn't denied boarding it's more like being kicked off a flight. The GAs and managers who were running that gate need to be fired for starters
Oh for sure, this should have been sorted out prior to boarding. I'm thinking the flight was full, then United Crew Sked needed to get an FA on the flight to work a flight at the destination (perhaps a last minute book-off or something), the gate agents may have missed the call or the note on the computer, they boarded the flight then when the FA did not board crew sked called the gate, yikes now we have a problem!!! we gotta deplane someone. Not making excuses but I'm thinking this was a situation that cropped up at the last minute, maybe even prior to door closing/push-back.
james dean is offline  
Old Apr 10, 2017, 5:16 pm
  #974  
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Isle of Skye, Scotland
Programs: BA gold
Posts: 3,902
Originally Posted by leungy18
I guess UA defines "volunteers" the way that the Hunger Games does.
I was wondering the same thing. Do the airlines have that much power that they change the meanings in the English language...?
Stez is offline  
Old Apr 10, 2017, 5:16 pm
  #975  
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 575
Originally Posted by closetasfan
also want to add that if our personnel requirements need passengers to be dragged off, may be time to get a new scheduler.
But this happens every day on every airline. The only difference is this time, the passenger didn't comply.
flyerbaby19 is offline  


Contact Us - Manage Preferences - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.