Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Miles&Points > Airlines and Mileage Programs > United Airlines | MileagePlus
Reload this Page >

Man pulled off of overbooked flight UA3411 (ORD-SDF) 9 Apr 2017 {Settlement reached}

Community
Wiki Posts
Search
Old Apr 10, 2017, 8:42 pm
FlyerTalk Forums Expert How-Tos and Guides
Last edit by: WineCountryUA
WELCOME, THREAD GUIDELINES and SUMMARY PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING

If you are new to us, welcome to FlyerTalk! Who we are: FlyerTalk features discussions and chat boards that cover the most up-to-date traveler information; an interactive community dedicated to the topic of travel (not politics or arguments about politics or religion, etc. – those discussion are best in the OMNI forum)

The incident discussed in this thread has touched a nerve for many, and many posters are passionate about their opinions and concerns. However we should still have a civil and respectful discussion of this topic. This is because FlyerTalk is meant to be a friendly, helpful, and collegial community. (Rule 12.)

1. The normal FlyerTalk Rules apply. (Including not discussing moderation actions in thread). Please be particularly attentive to "discussing the idea and not the poster" when you have a disagreement. Civility and mutual respect are still expected and are what we owe each other as a community.

2. You are expected to respect the FlyerTalk community's diversity, and therefore refrain from posting inflammatory comments about race, religion, culture, politics, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc. Do not cite, copy, or report on such.

3. While you can disagree with an opinion, the holder of that opinion has the same right to their opinion as you have to yours. We request all to respect that and disagree or discuss their point of views without getting overly personal and without attacking the other poster(s). This is expected as a requirement in FT Rule 12.

4. Overly exaggerative posts as well as posts with information that has been posted several times previously may be summarily deleted.

5. In addition, those who repeatedly fail to comply with FlyerTalk Rules, may be subjected to FlyerTalk disciplinary actions and, e.g., have membership privileges suspended, or masked from this forum.

If you have questions about the Rules or concerns about what another has posted in this or other threads in this forum, please do not post about that. Rather, notify the moderators by using the alert symbol within each post or email or send a private message to us moderators.

Let’s have this discussion in a way that, when we look back on it, we can be proud of how we handled ourselves as a community.

The United Moderator team:
J.Edward
l'etoile
Ocn Vw 1K
Pat89339
WineCountryUA

N.B. PLEASE do not alter the contents of this moderator note
Statement from United Airlines Regarding Resolution with Dr. David Dao - released 27 April 2017
CHICAGO, April 27, 2017 /PRNewswire/ -- We are pleased to report that United and Dr. Dao have reached an amicable resolution of the unfortunate incident that occurred aboard flight 3411. We look forward to implementing the improvements we have announced, which will put our customers at the center of everything we do.
DOT findings related to the UA3411 9 April 2017 IDB incident 12 May 2017

What facts do we know?
  • UA3411, operated by Republic Airways, ORD-SDF on Sunday, April 9, 2017. UA3411 was the second to last flight to SDF for United. AA3509 and UA4771 were the two remaining departures for the day. Also, AA and DL had connecting options providing for same-day arrival in SDF.
  • After the flight was fully boarded, United determined four seats were needed to accommodate crew to SDF for a flight on Monday.
  • United solicited volunteers for VDB. (BUT stopped at $800 in UA$s, not cash). Chose not to go to the levels such as 1350 that airlines have been known to go even in case of weather impacted disruption)
  • After receiving no volunteers for $800 vouchers, a passenger volunteered for $1,600 and was "laughed at" and refused, United determined four passengers to be removed from the flight.
  • One passenger refused and Chicago Aviation Security Officers were called to forcibly remove the passenger.
  • The passenger hit the armrest in the aisle and received a concussion, a broken nose, a bloodied lip, and the loss of two teeth.
  • After being removed from the plane, the passenger re-boarded saying "I need to go home" repeatedly, before being removed again.
  • United spokesman Jonathan Guerin said the flight was sold out — but not oversold. Instead, United and regional affiliate Republic Airlines – the unit that operated Flight 3411 – decided they had to remove four passengers from the flight to accommodate crewmembers who were needed in Louisville the next day for a “downline connection.”

United Express Flight 3411 Review and Action Report - released 27 April 2017

Videos

Internal Communication by Oscar Munoz
Oscar Munoz sent an internal communication to UA employees (sources: View From The Wing, Chicago Tribune):
Dear Team,

Like you, I was upset to see and hear about what happened last night aboard United Express Flight 3411 headed from Chicago to Louisville. While the facts and circumstances are still evolving, especially with respect to why this customer defied Chicago Aviation Security Officers the way he did, to give you a clearer picture of what transpired, I've included below a recap from the preliminary reports filed by our employees.

As you will read, this situation was unfortunately compounded when one of the passengers we politely asked to deplane refused and it became necessary to contact Chicago Aviation Security Officers to help. Our employees followed established procedures for dealing with situations like this. While I deeply regret this situation arose, I also emphatically stand behind all of you, and I want to commend you for continuing to go above and beyond to ensure we fly right.

I do, however, believe there are lessons we can learn from this experience, and we are taking a close look at the circumstances surrounding this incident. Treating our customers and each other with respect and dignity is at the core of who we are, and we must always remember this no matter how challenging the situation.

Oscar

Summary of Flight 3411
  • On Sunday, April 9, after United Express Flight 3411 was fully boarded, United's gate agents were approached by crewmembers that were told they needed to board the flight.
  • We sought volunteers and then followed our involuntary denial of boarding process (including offering up to $1,000 in compensation) and when we approached one of these passengers to explain apologetically that he was being denied boarding, he raised his voice and refused to comply with crew member instructions.
  • He was approached a few more times after that in order to gain his compliance to come off the aircraft, and each time he refused and became more and more disruptive and belligerent.
  • Our agents were left with no choice but to call Chicago Aviation Security Officers to assist in removing the customer from the flight. He repeatedly declined to leave.
  • Chicago Aviation Security Officers were unable to gain his cooperation and physically removed him from the flight as he continued to resist - running back onto the aircraft in defiance of both our crew and security officials.
Email sent to all employees at 2:08PM on Tuesday, April 11.
Dear Team,

The truly horrific event that occurred on this flight has elicited many responses from all of us: outrage, anger, disappointment. I share all of those sentiments, and one above all: my deepest apologies for what happened. Like you, I continue to be disturbed by what happened on this flight and I deeply apologize to the customer forcibly removed and to all the customers aboard. No one should ever be mistreated this way.

I want you to know that we take full responsibility and we will work to make it right.

It’s never too late to do the right thing. I have committed to our customers and our employees that we are going to fix what’s broken so this never happens again. This will include a thorough review of crew movement, our policies for incentivizing volunteers in these situations, how we handle oversold situations and an examination of how we partner with airport authorities and local law enforcement. We’ll communicate the results of our review by April 30th.

I promise you we will do better.

Sincerely,

Oscar
Statement to customers - 27 April 2017
Each flight you take with us represents an important promise we make to you, our customer. It's not simply that we make sure you reach your destination safely and on time, but also that you will be treated with the highest level of service and the deepest sense of dignity and respect.

Earlier this month, we broke that trust when a passenger was forcibly removed from one of our planes. We can never say we are sorry enough for what occurred, but we also know meaningful actions will speak louder than words.

For the past several weeks, we have been urgently working to answer two questions: How did this happen, and how can we do our best to ensure this never happens again?

It happened because our corporate policies were placed ahead of our shared values. Our procedures got in the way of our employees doing what they know is right.

Fixing that problem starts now with changing how we fly, serve and respect our customers. This is a turning point for all of us here at United – and as CEO, it's my responsibility to make sure that we learn from this experience and redouble our efforts to put our customers at the center of everything we do.

That’s why we announced that we will no longer ask law enforcement to remove customers from a flight and customers will not be required to give up their seat once on board – except in matters of safety or security.

We also know that despite our best efforts, when things don’t go the way they should, we need to be there for you to make things right. There are several new ways we’re going to do just that.

We will increase incentives for voluntary rebooking up to $10,000 and will be eliminating the red tape on permanently lost bags with a new "no-questions-asked" $1,500 reimbursement policy. We will also be rolling out a new app for our employees that will enable them to provide on-the-spot goodwill gestures in the form of miles, travel credit and other amenities when your experience with us misses the mark. You can learn more about these commitments and many other changes at hub.united.com.

While these actions are important, I have found myself reflecting more broadly on the role we play and the responsibilities we have to you and the communities we serve.

I believe we must go further in redefining what United's corporate citizenship looks like in our society. If our chief good as a company is only getting you to and from your destination, that would show a lack of moral imagination on our part. You can and ought to expect more from us, and we intend to live up to those higher expectations in the way we embody social responsibility and civic leadership everywhere we operate. I hope you will see that pledge express itself in our actions going forward, of which these initial, though important, changes are merely a first step.

Our goal should be nothing less than to make you truly proud to say, "I fly United."

Ultimately, the measure of our success is your satisfaction and the past several weeks have moved us to go further than ever before in elevating your experience with us. I know our 87,000 employees have taken this message to heart, and they are as energized as ever to fulfill our promise to serve you better with each flight and earn the trust you’ve given us.

We are working harder than ever for the privilege to serve you and I know we will be stronger, better and the customer-focused airline you expect and deserve.

With Great Gratitude,

Oscar Munoz
CEO
United Airlines
Aftermath
Poll: Your Opinion of United Airlines Reference Material

UA's Customer Commitment says:
Occasionally we may not be able to provide you with a seat on a specific flight, even if you hold a ticket, have checked in, are present to board on time, and comply with other requirements. This is called an oversale, and occurs when restrictions apply to operating a particular flight safely (such as aircraft weight limits); when we have to substitute a smaller aircraft in place of a larger aircraft that was originally scheduled; or if more customers have checked in and are prepared to board than we have available seats.

If your flight is in an oversale situation, you will not be denied a seat until we first ask for volunteers willing to give up their confirmed seats. If there are not enough volunteers, we will deny boarding to passengers in accordance with our written policy on boarding priority. If you are involuntarily denied boarding and have complied with our check-in and other applicable rules, we will give you a written statement that describes your rights and explains how we determine boarding priority for an oversold flight. You will generally be entitled to compensation and transportation on an alternate flight.

We make complete rules for the payment of compensation, as well as our policy about boarding priorities, available at airports we serve. We will follow these rules to ensure you are treated fairly. Please be aware that you may be denied boarding without compensation if you do not check in on time or do not meet certain other requirements, or if we offer you alternative transportation that is planned to arrive at your destination or first stopover no later than one hour after the planned arrival time of your original flight.
CoC is here: https://www.united.com/web/en-US/con...-carriage.aspx
Print Wikipost

Man pulled off of overbooked flight UA3411 (ORD-SDF) 9 Apr 2017 {Settlement reached}

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old Apr 10, 2019, 4:32 pm
  #6946  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: MFR
Programs: UA 1K 1.9MM, Hilton Gold, Marriott Gold
Posts: 2,885
Originally Posted by PsiFighter37
While I sympathized with Dr. Dao's plight at the time, I fail to see what benefit the additional publicity does for him specifically, this long after the fact, and long after he got what was undoubtedly a generous financial settlement. It's a dead matter to me at this point.
If he's doing interviews and talk shows... $$$$$
chavala is offline  
Old Apr 10, 2019, 4:38 pm
  #6947  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Denver, CO, USA
Programs: Sometimes known as [ARG:6 UNDEFINED]
Posts: 26,700
Originally Posted by PsiFighter37
While I sympathized with Dr. Dao's plight at the time, I fail to see what benefit the additional publicity does for him specifically, this long after the fact, and long after he got what was undoubtedly a generous financial settlement. It's a dead matter to me at this point.
Apparently still alive enough for you to post. @:-)
DenverBrian is offline  
Old Apr 10, 2019, 4:55 pm
  #6948  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 10,904
Originally Posted by MSPeconomist
This was discussed at the time Dr Dao was beaten and dragged. Apparently UA picked him for the IDB because it would be particularly cheap according to the USA DOT rules. IIRC we were estimating that he might have gotten about $20 for an overnight delay of something like 20 hours.
How is that possible? I thought that IDB was 4x fare up to a max of something like $1400 for delays of more than 2hrs.

I'm guessing that his fare was more than $5... how can the comp only be $20?
VegasGambler is offline  
Old Apr 10, 2019, 8:15 pm
  #6949  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: SFO
Programs: OZ Diamond/*G, IHG Diamond Amb, Hilton Gold
Posts: 2,239
Originally Posted by VegasGambler
How is that possible? I thought that IDB was 4x fare up to a max of something like $1400 for delays of more than 2hrs.

I'm guessing that his fare was more than $5... how can the comp only be $20?
If he was on a mileage ticket it's possible. Mileage ticket comp of IDB is 4x lowest paid coach fare, so perhaps there was someone flying FRA-ORD-SDF or something on a cheapo fare, it would not be inconceivable for the ticket cost allocated to the ORD-SDF flight to be $5, thus making 4x the lowest paid coach fare $20.

Prior to this incident, after which IDB basically became non-existent, it would often be cheaper for airlines to IDB passengers than offer compensation, especially for overnight delays.
1353513636 is offline  
Old Apr 11, 2019, 3:18 am
  #6950  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: RNO
Programs: AA/DL/UA
Posts: 10,775
The ability of the airlines to abuse the IDB system to save money has been neutered thanks to Dr Dao. ^
iluv2fly likes this.
Kevin AA is offline  
Old Apr 11, 2019, 8:11 am
  #6951  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 21,406
Originally Posted by Kevin AA
The ability of the airlines to abuse the IDB system to save money has been neutered thanks to Dr Dao.
So has the ability of travelers to get a good deal on airfare in exchange for the remote possibility of IDB. The door swings both ways.
nnn, Wombat1 and ExplorerWannabe like this.
jsloan is offline  
Old Apr 11, 2019, 8:27 am
  #6952  
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 2,531
Originally Posted by Kevin AA
The ability of the airlines to abuse the IDB system to save money has been neutered thanks to Dr Dao. ^
UA mainline:

2018Q4
IDB: 23 (~1 in 1,000,000 or 2 a month)
VDB: 7,556 (~1 in 3,000 or 80 a day)
total boardings: 25,234,539

compare to

2016Q4
IDB: 891 (~1 in 25,000 or 1 a day)
VDB: 15,696 (~1 in 1,500 or 40 a day)
total boardings: 22,398,395

It looks like United overbooks about half as much and as a result about 8,000 seats a year go out empty/standby that before would have been filled with revenue pax. If we assume average seat cost is $500, that's $4m or 0.01% of UA's revenue. I'm not sure 0.004% IDB can really be described as "abusing the IDB system to save money".

However, the IDB rate has fallen much more than 50%. The majority of the IDB drop comes from the new VDB procedures / higher cap, not from less overbooking. (Or possibly by reducing overbooking on specific flights that are hard to get people to volunteer.)

(NB: I did United mainline not UA/UAX because the latter numbers aren't available for 2016 before DOT changed reporting requirements)

Personally, I would have preferred that our regulators step up and set the IDB cash price at $10,000 (+ indexed to inflation) or 4x the highest fare paid, rather than it taking someone getting seriously injured over the perceived injustice of the then-current system. While Dao was breaking the breaking the rules (and, imo, should have gotten off the plan when asked), obviously it resonated with a lot of people and the fact that airlines are now "voluntarily" upping their VDB game and reducing overbookings means the regulators were lagging behind.

I'm mostly mad at the police and the USDOT, and less mad at either Dao or United.
nnn, EdV and LIH like this.
threeoh is offline  
Old Apr 11, 2019, 8:41 am
  #6953  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 21,406
Originally Posted by threeoh
However, the IDB rate has fallen much more than 50%. The majority of the IDB drop comes from the new VDB procedures / higher cap, not from less overbooking. (Or possibly by reducing overbooking on specific flights that are hard to get people to volunteer.)
Right, I don't think you can make that claim definitively. If all VDB situations were equally likely to generate an IDB, then I'd agree, but I don't think that's the case. Not only does UA have historic information about when they've had to IDB before, but it's also possible that IDBs mostly happen at the margins. Although I'm not sure we ever got clarity around the flight in question, the initial reports were that they needed 4 volunteers and got two. If that's common, then reducing overbooking would have an outsized effect on the number of IDBs.

Except in the very rare case of IDBs, overbooking was a win/win. To the extent that it's dropped -- and I'm frankly surprised it's dropped as little as it had, anecdotally (between my own experience and the VDB thread), it seemed to be more -- that's a net loss for the customer.
jsloan is offline  
Old Apr 11, 2019, 9:14 am
  #6954  
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 2,531
Originally Posted by jsloan
Right, I don't think you can make that claim definitively. If all VDB situations were equally likely to generate an IDB, then I'd agree, but I don't think that's the case. Not only does UA have historic information about when they've had to IDB before, but it's also possible that IDBs mostly happen at the margins. Although I'm not sure we ever got clarity around the flight in question, the initial reports were that they needed 4 volunteers and got two. If that's common, then reducing overbooking would have an outsized effect on the number of IDBs.
Fair point. Hard to say from the data we have.

Also on the flight in question, my understanding is that it wasn't "overbooked" in the traditional sense that they sold more tickets than seats anticipating noshows, but rather they unexpectedly needed to deadhead some crew and were willing to displace passengers to do so. (Maybe now they would cancel the flight those crew were going to work.) So it's not clear to me that overbooking less would have prevented this. Having higher fixed IDB payout regulation / higher VDB policies would have.

Except in the very rare case of IDBs, overbooking was a win/win. To the extent that it's dropped -- and I'm frankly surprised it's dropped as little as it had, anecdotally (between my own experience and the VDB thread), it seemed to be more -- that's a net loss for the customer.
Agreed.
threeoh is offline  
Old Apr 11, 2019, 9:22 am
  #6955  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: ATL
Programs: DL Scattered Smothered Covered Medallion, Some hotel & car stuff, Kroger Plus Card
Posts: 10,745
Originally Posted by kale73
Really? I’d personally prefer to see a Constitutional Amendment prohibiting both NDAs and binding arbitration clauses.
OT, but I would hate to mutilate the Constitution in this way.

NDAs and binding arbitration are contractual agreements willingly entered into by two private parties. I don't know that I want the Constitution playing a part in private contract details at that level of detail.

This doesn't mean I *like* NDAs and arbitration clauses (especially when the latter is force-fed within, for example, a broader contract of carriage or EULA), but I don't think altering the Constitution is the appropriate remedy.
LarryJ and ExplorerWannabe like this.
gooselee is offline  
Old Apr 11, 2019, 9:29 am
  #6956  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 21,406
Originally Posted by threeoh
Also on the flight in question, my understanding is that it wasn't "overbooked" in the traditional sense that they sold more tickets than seats anticipating noshows, but rather they unexpectedly needed to deadhead some crew and were willing to displace passengers to do so. (Maybe now they would cancel the flight those crew were going to work.) So it's not clear to me that overbooking less would have prevented this. Having higher fixed IDB payout regulation / higher VDB policies would have.
I saw that also, but I think it's a distinction without a difference. They ended up with more passengers on the plane than they had seats. It's common for denied boarding situations to arise near the end of the check-in window, because that's precisely when UA would have hoped to sell walk-up fares at rates that would make VDB profitable.

I think higher statutory IDB policies might have prevented the incident, but they'd have had the same effect on the rest of us: higher fares and fewer opportunities to volunteer. (I'm still amazed that they couldn't find enough volunteers, even at $800, for an easily drivable route).
jsloan is offline  
Old Apr 11, 2019, 9:56 am
  #6957  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minneapolis: DL DM charter 2.3MM
Programs: A3*Gold, SPG Plat, HyattDiamond, MarriottPP, LHW exAccess, ICI, Raffles Amb, NW PE MM, TWA Gold MM
Posts: 100,413
Originally Posted by 1353513636
If he was on a mileage ticket it's possible. Mileage ticket comp of IDB is 4x lowest paid coach fare, so perhaps there was someone flying FRA-ORD-SDF or something on a cheapo fare, it would not be inconceivable for the ticket cost allocated to the ORD-SDF flight to be $5, thus making 4x the lowest paid coach fare $20.

Prior to this incident, after which IDB basically became non-existent, it would often be cheaper for airlines to IDB passengers than offer compensation, especially for overnight delays.
He apparently had a super cheap RT to California. If he were IDBed from a short connecting flight, it would be calculated as miles for the short segment divided by total miles for the RT, perhaps 200/3000 miles or less than ten percent of the ticket price. If he had paid $100 for the ticket, IDB calculation would be 4 X $6.66 or about $26 to give some rough illustrative numbers. This is far far less than the $1300 or $1350 maximum amount that a carrier is required to pay.
MSPeconomist is offline  
Old Apr 11, 2019, 4:03 pm
  #6958  
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: WAS
Posts: 3,010
Interesting report by @jjmoore in the AA forum VDB thread:

Originally Posted by jjmoore
Here's a candidate for biggest single VDB payday on AA ... my colleague showed me today his compensation from last Saturday's MCO-LAX on AA, which needed 4 volunteers to travel 24 hours later. They had a last minute crew that deadheaded onto the flight after boarding (completely sold out flight but not oversold until this happened), and AA was desperately trying to get people to jump off the flight. The final offer that got the 4 volunteers was a $5000 cashiers check IN ADDITION to a $6000 travel voucher, for a grand total of $11,000 in compensation. Obviously, my friend took it and we are all jealous!
onthesam likes this.
cmn.jcs is offline  
Old Apr 11, 2019, 9:03 pm
  #6959  
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: IAH
Programs: UA 1K 2.7MM, Marriott Titanium/LT Plat, IHG Spire
Posts: 3,317
Originally Posted by ExplorerWannabe
Bear in mind that ALL of his injuries were self-inflicted. If you watch the video, the officers were pretty slow and deliberate in trying to get Dao out of the seat. Dao was the one flailing around and it was his erratic movements that caused them to lose grip to where he struck his head. I get the fact that he suffers from PTSD but he was given a legitimate request to vacate and he chose the path of violent non-compliance. In the long run, it makes more sense for the airlines to increase VDB amounts to avoid IDB incidents but I am NOT a fan of Dr. Dao or his near-deification.
Dr. Dao is not the sweet harmless grandpa that he would like to be perceived as. He was a very accomplished poker player and I believe that he deliberately played this situation out just as he would a poker hand to maximum gain for himself. Far worse is that he is a convicted sexual predator . . . he became sexually interested in a young male patient then deliberately got the guy addicted to Vicodin and narcotics so that the young man would meet him in hotels and allow Dao to have sex with him and pay him $200 plus give him drugs. He had his medical license suspended for this. He also had a very bad reputation at the hospital in which he worked for being disruptive and angry. https://nypost.com/2017/04/11/doctor...drugs-for-sex/

So those of you proclaiming Dr. Dao a hero . . . he is quite frankly the scum of the earth.
JNelson113 is offline  
Old Apr 12, 2019, 2:10 am
  #6960  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 57,595
Originally Posted by JNelson113
So those of you proclaiming Dr. Dao a hero . . . he is quite frankly the scum of the earth.
And that justifies how UA treated him?
halls120 is offline  


Contact Us - Manage Preferences - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.