Apr 10, 2017, 8:42 pm
Last edit by: WineCountryUA
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Let’s have this discussion in a way that, when we look back on it, we can be proud of how we handled ourselves as a community.
The United Moderator team:
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l'etoile
Ocn Vw 1K
Pat89339
WineCountryUA
N.B. PLEASE do not alter the contents of this moderator note
CHICAGO, April 27, 2017 /PRNewswire/ -- We are pleased to report that United and Dr. Dao have reached an amicable resolution of the unfortunate incident that occurred aboard flight 3411. We look forward to implementing the improvements we have announced, which will put our customers at the center of everything we do.
What facts do we know?
- UA3411, operated by Republic Airways, ORD-SDF on Sunday, April 9, 2017. UA3411 was the second to last flight to SDF for United. AA3509 and UA4771 were the two remaining departures for the day. Also, AA and DL had connecting options providing for same-day arrival in SDF.
- After the flight was fully boarded, United determined four seats were needed to accommodate crew to SDF for a flight on Monday.
- United solicited volunteers for VDB. (BUT stopped at $800 in UA$s, not cash). Chose not to go to the levels such as 1350 that airlines have been known to go even in case of weather impacted disruption)
- After receiving no volunteers for $800 vouchers, a passenger volunteered for $1,600 and was "laughed at" and refused, United determined four passengers to be removed from the flight.
- One passenger refused and Chicago Aviation Security Officers were called to forcibly remove the passenger.
- The passenger hit the armrest in the aisle and received a concussion, a broken nose, a bloodied lip, and the loss of two teeth.
- After being removed from the plane, the passenger re-boarded saying "I need to go home" repeatedly, before being removed again.
- United spokesman Jonathan Guerin said the flight was sold out — but not oversold. Instead, United and regional affiliate Republic Airlines – the unit that operated Flight 3411 – decided they had to remove four passengers from the flight to accommodate crewmembers who were needed in Louisville the next day for a “downline connection.”
United Express Flight 3411 Review and Action Report - released 27 April 2017
Videos
- Passenger one row behind and on the aisle footage BEFORE man was dragged off https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=655_1492004707
- Videos of man being removed https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4b7_1491983214 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nAZEk6nsNE
- Video of man re-entering plane https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNEQDWpYbZA (link dead)
Internal Communication by Oscar Munoz
Oscar Munoz sent an internal communication to UA employees (sources: View From The Wing, Chicago Tribune):
Dear Team,
Like you, I was upset to see and hear about what happened last night aboard United Express Flight 3411 headed from Chicago to Louisville. While the facts and circumstances are still evolving, especially with respect to why this customer defied Chicago Aviation Security Officers the way he did, to give you a clearer picture of what transpired, I've included below a recap from the preliminary reports filed by our employees.
As you will read, this situation was unfortunately compounded when one of the passengers we politely asked to deplane refused and it became necessary to contact Chicago Aviation Security Officers to help. Our employees followed established procedures for dealing with situations like this. While I deeply regret this situation arose, I also emphatically stand behind all of you, and I want to commend you for continuing to go above and beyond to ensure we fly right.
I do, however, believe there are lessons we can learn from this experience, and we are taking a close look at the circumstances surrounding this incident. Treating our customers and each other with respect and dignity is at the core of who we are, and we must always remember this no matter how challenging the situation.
Oscar
Summary of Flight 3411
Like you, I was upset to see and hear about what happened last night aboard United Express Flight 3411 headed from Chicago to Louisville. While the facts and circumstances are still evolving, especially with respect to why this customer defied Chicago Aviation Security Officers the way he did, to give you a clearer picture of what transpired, I've included below a recap from the preliminary reports filed by our employees.
As you will read, this situation was unfortunately compounded when one of the passengers we politely asked to deplane refused and it became necessary to contact Chicago Aviation Security Officers to help. Our employees followed established procedures for dealing with situations like this. While I deeply regret this situation arose, I also emphatically stand behind all of you, and I want to commend you for continuing to go above and beyond to ensure we fly right.
I do, however, believe there are lessons we can learn from this experience, and we are taking a close look at the circumstances surrounding this incident. Treating our customers and each other with respect and dignity is at the core of who we are, and we must always remember this no matter how challenging the situation.
Oscar
Summary of Flight 3411
- On Sunday, April 9, after United Express Flight 3411 was fully boarded, United's gate agents were approached by crewmembers that were told they needed to board the flight.
- We sought volunteers and then followed our involuntary denial of boarding process (including offering up to $1,000 in compensation) and when we approached one of these passengers to explain apologetically that he was being denied boarding, he raised his voice and refused to comply with crew member instructions.
- He was approached a few more times after that in order to gain his compliance to come off the aircraft, and each time he refused and became more and more disruptive and belligerent.
- Our agents were left with no choice but to call Chicago Aviation Security Officers to assist in removing the customer from the flight. He repeatedly declined to leave.
- Chicago Aviation Security Officers were unable to gain his cooperation and physically removed him from the flight as he continued to resist - running back onto the aircraft in defiance of both our crew and security officials.
Dear Team,
The truly horrific event that occurred on this flight has elicited many responses from all of us: outrage, anger, disappointment. I share all of those sentiments, and one above all: my deepest apologies for what happened. Like you, I continue to be disturbed by what happened on this flight and I deeply apologize to the customer forcibly removed and to all the customers aboard. No one should ever be mistreated this way.
I want you to know that we take full responsibility and we will work to make it right.
It’s never too late to do the right thing. I have committed to our customers and our employees that we are going to fix what’s broken so this never happens again. This will include a thorough review of crew movement, our policies for incentivizing volunteers in these situations, how we handle oversold situations and an examination of how we partner with airport authorities and local law enforcement. We’ll communicate the results of our review by April 30th.
I promise you we will do better.
Sincerely,
Oscar
The truly horrific event that occurred on this flight has elicited many responses from all of us: outrage, anger, disappointment. I share all of those sentiments, and one above all: my deepest apologies for what happened. Like you, I continue to be disturbed by what happened on this flight and I deeply apologize to the customer forcibly removed and to all the customers aboard. No one should ever be mistreated this way.
I want you to know that we take full responsibility and we will work to make it right.
It’s never too late to do the right thing. I have committed to our customers and our employees that we are going to fix what’s broken so this never happens again. This will include a thorough review of crew movement, our policies for incentivizing volunteers in these situations, how we handle oversold situations and an examination of how we partner with airport authorities and local law enforcement. We’ll communicate the results of our review by April 30th.
I promise you we will do better.
Sincerely,
Oscar
Each flight you take with us represents an important promise we make to you, our customer. It's not simply that we make sure you reach your destination safely and on time, but also that you will be treated with the highest level of service and the deepest sense of dignity and respect.
Earlier this month, we broke that trust when a passenger was forcibly removed from one of our planes. We can never say we are sorry enough for what occurred, but we also know meaningful actions will speak louder than words.
For the past several weeks, we have been urgently working to answer two questions: How did this happen, and how can we do our best to ensure this never happens again?
It happened because our corporate policies were placed ahead of our shared values. Our procedures got in the way of our employees doing what they know is right.
Fixing that problem starts now with changing how we fly, serve and respect our customers. This is a turning point for all of us here at United – and as CEO, it's my responsibility to make sure that we learn from this experience and redouble our efforts to put our customers at the center of everything we do.
That’s why we announced that we will no longer ask law enforcement to remove customers from a flight and customers will not be required to give up their seat once on board – except in matters of safety or security.
We also know that despite our best efforts, when things don’t go the way they should, we need to be there for you to make things right. There are several new ways we’re going to do just that.
We will increase incentives for voluntary rebooking up to $10,000 and will be eliminating the red tape on permanently lost bags with a new "no-questions-asked" $1,500 reimbursement policy. We will also be rolling out a new app for our employees that will enable them to provide on-the-spot goodwill gestures in the form of miles, travel credit and other amenities when your experience with us misses the mark. You can learn more about these commitments and many other changes at hub.united.com.
While these actions are important, I have found myself reflecting more broadly on the role we play and the responsibilities we have to you and the communities we serve.
I believe we must go further in redefining what United's corporate citizenship looks like in our society. If our chief good as a company is only getting you to and from your destination, that would show a lack of moral imagination on our part. You can and ought to expect more from us, and we intend to live up to those higher expectations in the way we embody social responsibility and civic leadership everywhere we operate. I hope you will see that pledge express itself in our actions going forward, of which these initial, though important, changes are merely a first step.
Our goal should be nothing less than to make you truly proud to say, "I fly United."
Ultimately, the measure of our success is your satisfaction and the past several weeks have moved us to go further than ever before in elevating your experience with us. I know our 87,000 employees have taken this message to heart, and they are as energized as ever to fulfill our promise to serve you better with each flight and earn the trust you’ve given us.
We are working harder than ever for the privilege to serve you and I know we will be stronger, better and the customer-focused airline you expect and deserve.
With Great Gratitude,
Oscar Munoz
CEO
United Airlines
Earlier this month, we broke that trust when a passenger was forcibly removed from one of our planes. We can never say we are sorry enough for what occurred, but we also know meaningful actions will speak louder than words.
For the past several weeks, we have been urgently working to answer two questions: How did this happen, and how can we do our best to ensure this never happens again?
It happened because our corporate policies were placed ahead of our shared values. Our procedures got in the way of our employees doing what they know is right.
Fixing that problem starts now with changing how we fly, serve and respect our customers. This is a turning point for all of us here at United – and as CEO, it's my responsibility to make sure that we learn from this experience and redouble our efforts to put our customers at the center of everything we do.
That’s why we announced that we will no longer ask law enforcement to remove customers from a flight and customers will not be required to give up their seat once on board – except in matters of safety or security.
We also know that despite our best efforts, when things don’t go the way they should, we need to be there for you to make things right. There are several new ways we’re going to do just that.
We will increase incentives for voluntary rebooking up to $10,000 and will be eliminating the red tape on permanently lost bags with a new "no-questions-asked" $1,500 reimbursement policy. We will also be rolling out a new app for our employees that will enable them to provide on-the-spot goodwill gestures in the form of miles, travel credit and other amenities when your experience with us misses the mark. You can learn more about these commitments and many other changes at hub.united.com.
While these actions are important, I have found myself reflecting more broadly on the role we play and the responsibilities we have to you and the communities we serve.
I believe we must go further in redefining what United's corporate citizenship looks like in our society. If our chief good as a company is only getting you to and from your destination, that would show a lack of moral imagination on our part. You can and ought to expect more from us, and we intend to live up to those higher expectations in the way we embody social responsibility and civic leadership everywhere we operate. I hope you will see that pledge express itself in our actions going forward, of which these initial, though important, changes are merely a first step.
Our goal should be nothing less than to make you truly proud to say, "I fly United."
Ultimately, the measure of our success is your satisfaction and the past several weeks have moved us to go further than ever before in elevating your experience with us. I know our 87,000 employees have taken this message to heart, and they are as energized as ever to fulfill our promise to serve you better with each flight and earn the trust you’ve given us.
We are working harder than ever for the privilege to serve you and I know we will be stronger, better and the customer-focused airline you expect and deserve.
With Great Gratitude,
Oscar Munoz
CEO
United Airlines
- Chicago Aviation Department said on the Monday afternoon after the incident that the officer who had dragged the passenger off the plane had been placed on leave pending an investigation. Spokesperson Karen Pride said in an email that "The incident on United flight 3411 was not in accordance with our standard operating procedure and the actions of the aviation security officer are obviously not condoned by the Department."
- 4/12/17: Two more Chicago Aviation officers involved are suspended
- Muñoz does ABC interview, announcing United will no longer use law enforcement to remove passengers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90jSUe_vdhM
- United announces policy change that crews traveling on their aircraft must be booked at least 60 minutes prior to departure.
- United releases multiple changes in overbooking / denied boarding policies "We are making changes to ensure that we always put customers first" (http://newsroom.united.com/2017-04-2...mer-Experience) released 27 April 2017
- Statement from United Airlines Regarding Resolution with Dr. David Dao - released 27 April 2017
- Response to Senate Commerce Committee questions - 1 May 2017
- United Airlines PR Boss to Step Down
- James Long, one of several officers involved in removing David Dao from the April 9, 2017, flight to make room for airline employees, filed suit on Tuesday against United, Chicago’s Department of Aviation and its commissioner, Ginger Evans. The lawsuit, filed in the circuit court of Cook County, Illinois, alleges he was not properly trained on how to use force.
Poll: Your Opinion of United Airlines
Poll link: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/KP68GYG
Results link: https://www.surveymonkey.com/results...Q6B2B/instant/
Reference MaterialResults link: https://www.surveymonkey.com/results...Q6B2B/instant/
UA's Customer Commitment says:
Occasionally we may not be able to provide you with a seat on a specific flight, even if you hold a ticket, have checked in, are present to board on time, and comply with other requirements. This is called an oversale, and occurs when restrictions apply to operating a particular flight safely (such as aircraft weight limits); when we have to substitute a smaller aircraft in place of a larger aircraft that was originally scheduled; or if more customers have checked in and are prepared to board than we have available seats.
If your flight is in an oversale situation, you will not be denied a seat until we first ask for volunteers willing to give up their confirmed seats. If there are not enough volunteers, we will deny boarding to passengers in accordance with our written policy on boarding priority. If you are involuntarily denied boarding and have complied with our check-in and other applicable rules, we will give you a written statement that describes your rights and explains how we determine boarding priority for an oversold flight. You will generally be entitled to compensation and transportation on an alternate flight.
We make complete rules for the payment of compensation, as well as our policy about boarding priorities, available at airports we serve. We will follow these rules to ensure you are treated fairly. Please be aware that you may be denied boarding without compensation if you do not check in on time or do not meet certain other requirements, or if we offer you alternative transportation that is planned to arrive at your destination or first stopover no later than one hour after the planned arrival time of your original flight.
CoC is here: https://www.united.com/web/en-US/con...-carriage.aspxIf your flight is in an oversale situation, you will not be denied a seat until we first ask for volunteers willing to give up their confirmed seats. If there are not enough volunteers, we will deny boarding to passengers in accordance with our written policy on boarding priority. If you are involuntarily denied boarding and have complied with our check-in and other applicable rules, we will give you a written statement that describes your rights and explains how we determine boarding priority for an oversold flight. You will generally be entitled to compensation and transportation on an alternate flight.
We make complete rules for the payment of compensation, as well as our policy about boarding priorities, available at airports we serve. We will follow these rules to ensure you are treated fairly. Please be aware that you may be denied boarding without compensation if you do not check in on time or do not meet certain other requirements, or if we offer you alternative transportation that is planned to arrive at your destination or first stopover no later than one hour after the planned arrival time of your original flight.
Man pulled off of overbooked flight UA3411 (ORD-SDF) 9 Apr 2017 {Settlement reached}
Apr 15, 2017, 9:39 am
#5761
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: DFW
Posts: 28,114
Amen! Whether the public wants to believe it or not, this happens with every airline, every day. I had a family member subject to same. When asked to deplane, she calmly gathered her belongings and complied.
While I do not agree with crew scheduling advancing a last minute crew on board flight 3411, the chances that they were bumping passengers to get home are highly unlikely. If UA had to inconvenience four passengers to salvage a flight of 70(+) up the line, so be it. They weighed their options for what they believed was the greater good.
Last, what many believe to be their "passenger rights" is not the same as your Constitutional Rights. Air travel is NOT a right; it is a CONVENIENCE. However, you, as an individual, do have every right to buy or charter a private flight in order to meet your specific travel requirements and expectations. If you can't afford this mode of travel, other options are yet available. You may reach your destination by train, bus, or how about this... DRIVE yourself. The chances that you will be "bullied, beaten, concussed, humiliated, or booted" from your private vehicle are slim to none.
The unfortunate outcome for passenger Dao was the result of his defiance toward "law enforcement" on scene. With the representation of an attorney, this individual wants to take a stand for passenger rights; had he taken a stand on flight 3411, and deplaned without incident, handling the situation with UA personnel (as did the prior three passengers), no altercation or injury would have taken place. This entire incident has only set a negative precedence for ALL parties involved.
While I do not agree with crew scheduling advancing a last minute crew on board flight 3411, the chances that they were bumping passengers to get home are highly unlikely. If UA had to inconvenience four passengers to salvage a flight of 70(+) up the line, so be it. They weighed their options for what they believed was the greater good.
Last, what many believe to be their "passenger rights" is not the same as your Constitutional Rights. Air travel is NOT a right; it is a CONVENIENCE. However, you, as an individual, do have every right to buy or charter a private flight in order to meet your specific travel requirements and expectations. If you can't afford this mode of travel, other options are yet available. You may reach your destination by train, bus, or how about this... DRIVE yourself. The chances that you will be "bullied, beaten, concussed, humiliated, or booted" from your private vehicle are slim to none.
The unfortunate outcome for passenger Dao was the result of his defiance toward "law enforcement" on scene. With the representation of an attorney, this individual wants to take a stand for passenger rights; had he taken a stand on flight 3411, and deplaned without incident, handling the situation with UA personnel (as did the prior three passengers), no altercation or injury would have taken place. This entire incident has only set a negative precedence for ALL parties involved.
If Dr. Dao is the one at fault for all of this then why is it that United and the Chicago Department of Aviation will likely be the ones suffering the penalties?
Apr 15, 2017, 9:40 am
#5762
Join Date: May 2014
Location: DMV
Posts: 2,092
Here's an interesting view on what happened at United and the lessons we can learn from it for our society:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art...#disqus_thread
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art...#disqus_thread
Voluntary/incentive-based arrangements typically rely on a cooperative attitude on all sides. They thrive in situations of high social trust and solidarity. The more adversarial a relationship becomes, the less likely it is to work. I feel like our interactions in society are becoming more adversarial all the time. People are less likely to take a step back and sacrifice their own interests for others because they don't trust other parties to act in good faith, they don't trust the authorities and hierarchies they encounter.
If someone 'tests' voluntary arrangements by lack of cooperation, the end outcome is and has to be coercion in a liberal society as well. A court decision ultimately is coercive, once you are out of appeals, it's law and will be backed up by law enforcement. But there are certainly situations where a decision needs to be made immediately for practical reasons and a court can only decide thereafter on whether that decision was right.
It's in such situations where the spirit of cooperation - borne out of mutual trust and faith that ultimately justice will be done - is so vital. I think we've lost that mentality. I think a lot of it has to do with the way politicians and corporations always seem to benefit, but it also has to do with a general decline in social trust and the loss of the old 'keep calm and carry on' mentality (today relegated to a tee shirt joke without understanding the mentality behind it).
Apr 15, 2017, 9:56 am
#5763
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 814
Even in high-trust societies, some force (or threat of force) is vital to prevent theft and predation. Otherwise, some low life would steal my mobile phone instead of buying it. Markets depend on these criminal laws, as well as civil laws that define what a bargain is and what remedies are available when they fail. Still other laws prohibit discrimination. All set boundaries on markets and pillars to support them.
Apr 15, 2017, 9:59 am
#5764
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Silicon Valley
Programs: UA GS, WN A-List, AA Exec Plat, National Emerald
Posts: 1,020
If this is true, then wasn't he "kidnapped"? His payout from Chicago Policie (and sadly, the Taxpayers) may be bigger than United's.
Apr 15, 2017, 10:01 am
#5765
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: DFW, AA, Hilton
Posts: 16,692
UA had other options including offering more and some other passenger would have been interested. It's called free market.
If someone needed an urgent ride due to death in the family, I know I would be willing to give up my seat.
But when the big company is the one that acts selfishly, not honoring a paying customer, and even resorts to getting security to violently evict a passenger from his seat, it's wrong. There is simply no excuse.
If someone needed an urgent ride due to death in the family, I know I would be willing to give up my seat.
But when the big company is the one that acts selfishly, not honoring a paying customer, and even resorts to getting security to violently evict a passenger from his seat, it's wrong. There is simply no excuse.
Last edited by WineCountryUA; Apr 16, 2017 at 12:28 am Reason: removed response to deleted content
Apr 15, 2017, 10:02 am
#5766
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: PHX
Programs: AS 75K; UA 1MM; Hyatt Globalist; Marriott LTP; Hilton Diamond (Aspire)
Posts: 56,466
He will basically seek the same damages from both United and the city, consisting of both physical and emotional harm, as well as medical expense. The theory will be that UA is responsible for the harm caused by the city employees, since the harm was foreseeable when they called the police to remove him.
Apr 15, 2017, 10:04 am
#5767
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 8
If he's in clinic next day:
He has to make decisions about the health and well-being of patients the next day. I wouldn't want a doctor to have to drive 5.5 hours overnight, after being IDB'd a flight, before seeing myself or my family.
if he's doing procedures the next day:
See clinic comment, except my coronaries or my colon.
He has to make decisions about the health and well-being of patients the next day. I wouldn't want a doctor to have to drive 5.5 hours overnight, after being IDB'd a flight, before seeing myself or my family.
if he's doing procedures the next day:
See clinic comment, except my coronaries or my colon.
Also, I seriously doubt that when UA personnel called in security/law enforcement, they expected the passenger to comply, not resist with the unfortunate outcome.
Apr 15, 2017, 10:11 am
#5768
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 8
Rather sure it was one of the regional carriers who scheduled their crew to deadhead. As has been said, there is no mainline service out of SDF.
I'd like the know the MD's name. I live in SDF and don't want to go to any MD that is too much of a idiot to comply with security staff. Educated people need to act like educated people.
The GA made a made mistake. But, it does not excuse an educated passenger from being a fool in they handled it.
I'd like to sue the GA and passenger for causing my outbound from SDF to be delayed because the inbound crew was late arrival last night.
I'd like the know the MD's name. I live in SDF and don't want to go to any MD that is too much of a idiot to comply with security staff. Educated people need to act like educated people.
The GA made a made mistake. But, it does not excuse an educated passenger from being a fool in they handled it.
I'd like to sue the GA and passenger for causing my outbound from SDF to be delayed because the inbound crew was late arrival last night.
Apr 15, 2017, 10:11 am
#5769
Join Date: Sep 2015
Programs: LH SEN; BA Gold
Posts: 8,405
Instead they spent two hours being delayed due to 'belligerent' passenger 'inconveniencing' them + 1 hour so flying. Unless their flight on Monday morning would've left really early, I doubt that the 2.5/3 hours more would've made a difference.
Apr 15, 2017, 10:11 am
#5770
Join Date: Jan 2012
Programs: UA Gold MM, HHonors Gold, Hertz Five Star Gold, Marriott Gold, Avis First
Posts: 462
I wouldn't want my pilots driving 5.5 hours either and expecting them to fly an aircraft of 70(+) passengers. Who is more of a threat at this point? And yes, the crew of an express flight consists of four crew members.
Also, I seriously doubt that when UA personnel called in security/law enforcement, they expected the passenger to comply, not resist with the unfortunate outcome.
Also, I seriously doubt that when UA personnel called in security/law enforcement, they expected the passenger to comply, not resist with the unfortunate outcome.
UA personnel had a choice to increase the amount offered. They should have offered real money and not vouchers. They could have skipped him and picked the next person in line. Why are we defending these idiots?
Apr 15, 2017, 10:12 am
#5771
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Nawthun Virginia
Programs: Air: UA (Gold), AA, WN, DL; Hotel: Hilton (Diamond), plus all the rest
Posts: 135
Amen! Whether the public wants to believe it or not, this happens with every airline, every day. I had a family member subject to same. When asked to deplane, she calmly gathered her belongings and complied.
While I do not agree with crew scheduling advancing a last minute crew on board flight 3411, the chances that they were bumping passengers to get home are highly unlikely. If UA had to inconvenience four passengers to salvage a flight of 70(+) up the line, so be it. They weighed their options for what they believed was the greater good.
Last, what many believe to be their "passenger rights" is not the same as your Constitutional Rights. Air travel is NOT a right; it is a CONVENIENCE. However, you, as an individual, do have every right to buy or charter a private flight in order to meet your specific travel requirements and expectations. If you can't afford this mode of travel, other options are yet available. You may reach your destination by train, bus, or how about this... DRIVE yourself. The chances that you will be "bullied, beaten, concussed, humiliated, or booted" from your private vehicle are slim to none.
The unfortunate outcome for passenger Dao was the result of his defiance toward "law enforcement" on scene. With the representation of an attorney, this individual wants to take a stand for passenger rights; had he taken a stand on flight 3411, and deplaned without incident, handling the situation with UA personnel (as did the prior three passengers), no altercation or injury would have taken place. This entire incident has only set a negative precedence for ALL parties involved.
While I do not agree with crew scheduling advancing a last minute crew on board flight 3411, the chances that they were bumping passengers to get home are highly unlikely. If UA had to inconvenience four passengers to salvage a flight of 70(+) up the line, so be it. They weighed their options for what they believed was the greater good.
Last, what many believe to be their "passenger rights" is not the same as your Constitutional Rights. Air travel is NOT a right; it is a CONVENIENCE. However, you, as an individual, do have every right to buy or charter a private flight in order to meet your specific travel requirements and expectations. If you can't afford this mode of travel, other options are yet available. You may reach your destination by train, bus, or how about this... DRIVE yourself. The chances that you will be "bullied, beaten, concussed, humiliated, or booted" from your private vehicle are slim to none.
The unfortunate outcome for passenger Dao was the result of his defiance toward "law enforcement" on scene. With the representation of an attorney, this individual wants to take a stand for passenger rights; had he taken a stand on flight 3411, and deplaned without incident, handling the situation with UA personnel (as did the prior three passengers), no altercation or injury would have taken place. This entire incident has only set a negative precedence for ALL parties involved.
I suggest a bit of reading on the concept of "contract of adhesion". Contracts assume both parties have equal negotiating power, but when that is not the case, courts and law favor the weaker party.
Also, we have private companies all over the place that provide a common service. Utilities are one example. Even when there is competition, they are regulated in the public interest, often at the local level, and always at the demand of the electorate. That's why they are called "common carriers" and regulated as such.
Apr 15, 2017, 10:13 am
#5772
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Amen! Whether the public wants to believe it or not, this happens with every airline, every day. I had a family member subject to same. When asked to deplane, she calmly gathered her belongings and complied.
While I do not agree with crew scheduling advancing a last minute crew on board flight 3411, the chances that they were bumping passengers to get home are highly unlikely. If UA had to inconvenience four passengers to salvage a flight of 70(+) up the line, so be it. They weighed their options for what they believed was the greater good.
Last, what many believe to be their "passenger rights" is not the same as your Constitutional Rights. Air travel is NOT a right; it is a CONVENIENCE. However, you, as an individual, do have every right to buy or charter a private flight in order to meet your specific travel requirements and expectations. If you can't afford this mode of travel, other options are yet available. You may reach your destination by train, bus, or how about this... DRIVE yourself. The chances that you will be "bullied, beaten, concussed, humiliated, or booted" from your private vehicle are slim to none.
The unfortunate outcome for passenger Dao was the result of his defiance toward "law enforcement" on scene. With the representation of an attorney, this individual wants to take a stand for passenger rights; had he taken a stand on flight 3411, and deplaned without incident, handling the situation with UA personnel (as did the prior three passengers), no altercation or injury would have taken place. This entire incident has only set a negative precedence for ALL parties involved.
While I do not agree with crew scheduling advancing a last minute crew on board flight 3411, the chances that they were bumping passengers to get home are highly unlikely. If UA had to inconvenience four passengers to salvage a flight of 70(+) up the line, so be it. They weighed their options for what they believed was the greater good.
Last, what many believe to be their "passenger rights" is not the same as your Constitutional Rights. Air travel is NOT a right; it is a CONVENIENCE. However, you, as an individual, do have every right to buy or charter a private flight in order to meet your specific travel requirements and expectations. If you can't afford this mode of travel, other options are yet available. You may reach your destination by train, bus, or how about this... DRIVE yourself. The chances that you will be "bullied, beaten, concussed, humiliated, or booted" from your private vehicle are slim to none.
The unfortunate outcome for passenger Dao was the result of his defiance toward "law enforcement" on scene. With the representation of an attorney, this individual wants to take a stand for passenger rights; had he taken a stand on flight 3411, and deplaned without incident, handling the situation with UA personnel (as did the prior three passengers), no altercation or injury would have taken place. This entire incident has only set a negative precedence for ALL parties involved.
Instead, UA should have been making decisions to maximize shareholder value--i.e., essentially to maximize profits.
However, the individuals and especially the GA making decisions about this particular flight realistically were doing what was perceived at the time to be the easiest and fastest way that was (maybe???) consistent with UA rules about how GAs should do their jobs. In fact, Oscar's initial statement and email to UA employees suggest that GAs are empowered to call the cops to remove passengers who resist IDBs (or perhaps just move too slowly to leave the aircraft or gate area).
Apr 15, 2017, 10:13 am
#5773
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I wouldn't want my pilots driving 5.5 hours either and expecting them to fly an aircraft of 70(+) passengers. Who is more of a threat at this point? And yes, the crew of an express flight consists of four crew members.
Also, I seriously doubt that when UA personnel called in security/law enforcement, they expected the passenger to comply, not resist with the unfortunate outcome.
Also, I seriously doubt that when UA personnel called in security/law enforcement, they expected the passenger to comply, not resist with the unfortunate outcome.
Apr 15, 2017, 10:16 am
#5774
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Why? How is anything from the past relevant to the incident? But if you insist, we should definitely look into the criminal history of UA too and extend that 'background check' of yours to their non-criminal history too (e.g. the Concorde crash).
Apr 15, 2017, 10:17 am
#5775
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Dao's background has nothing to do with the illegal actions of United and the Chicago Department of Aviation.
[Moderator edit per FT Rule 12.]
[Moderator edit per FT Rule 12.]
Last edited by Ocn Vw 1K; Apr 15, 2017 at 10:30 am Reason: Per FT Rule 12 -- and this thread's wiki, to debate the topic and not attack the member.