flyerCO

However they have no regulatory power over an airlines collecting a foreign tax. Best that is going to happen is the DOT will refer the case to the EU Consumer Advocate or appropriate EU authority for these case. In that case since it's an UK tax the EU will have to liaison with UK's HMRC. Basically if anything happens it's going to not be the DOT but the EU who do something. Even then it's a long shot.

mgcsinc

As discussed extensively, this is a confused idea of what's happening. UA is almost certainly not paying the tax. Rather, they're collecting additional money on that basis and keeping it. It's a failure to refund, which is firmly in the DOT's wheelhouse.

Moreover, the idea that the DOT has "no regulatory power over an airlines collecting a foreign tax" is just s pretty-sounding claim with no basis in law or fact.

Kacee

This is 100% wrong.

flyerCO

They only have power once they've confirmed with the EU/UK HMRC that a tax shouldn't be collected. They can NOT make that decision their self. I should have been clearer. They can enforce an order of UK HMRC/EU that an airline shouldn't have charged a tax. They can't decide to order it under without that.

mgcsinc

No. This claim has no basis in law or fact. It's just pretty-sounding made-up stuff.

flyerCO

Sorry, but the DOT can NOT decide if a foreign tax is payable or not. They can and DO enforce an opinion of the foreign government/agency that a tax was not payable. As I said earlier I should have been clearer. The DOT DOES have power to order repayment, but only after the foreign government gives them an opinion.

Sorry, but the DOT has no legal authority to decide if a foreign tax should apply or not. To do otherwise would mean the DOT was deciding on issues outside it's jurisdiction. Would the US accept a ruling by the EU/UK that airlines don't need to collect a US tax because they decided so? Of course not.

mgcsinc

Again, the idea that the DOT has to seek an opinion from the UK is just made up. It has no basis in the law and would be an insane requirement. You continue to conflate the UK's taxation of UA with the transaction in anticipation of that taxation that UA makes with customer. The DOT's authority over the latter is not in any way dependent on the former.

The DOT can do what it wants, and the UK remains welcome to collect the tax anyway. Two completely separate transactions that have little to do with each other except for the hopeful goal that they match.

Kacee

mgcsinc is correct. DOT has jurisdiction over UA's business practice of collecting ticket-related fees under false pretenses (that they are due as a tax). This has nothing to do with taxes that have actually been assessed by any UK taxing authority.

flyerCO

I have not argued they don't have power to stop an airline from collecting fees under false pretenses. However if that airline is saying it's collecting the fee because of a foreign requirement they can NOT make a determination on their own that it should/shouldn't be paid. In this case the airline is claiming the UK HMRC is requiring them to collect a fee. Absent the UK HMRC giving advise otherwise there's nothing DOT can do. Once UK HMRC says no the tax doesn't apply then DOT can bring suit to refund paid tax, and prevent future illegal collection.

Sorry but basic law prevents them from doing so. It's outside the jurisdiction of the DOT to determine if a foreign tax should be collected or not. Even if they said they could a court would overturn any ruling without supporting opinion from the foreign government. The court finding would be that the DOT is not a legally competent authority on if a foreign tax applies or not.

Call the DOT up, ask them to make a ruling on if a foreign tax applies. They'll tell you to contact the foreign authority responsible for said tax.

Put this way, if DOT ruled that UA shouldn't collect it, but UK HMRC says yes it should, guess who the US courts would find is the competent authority on if it applies? They would rule for UK HMRC and say the DOT can not order the airline not to comply.

zabes64

If I needed to file a complaint with the DOT (which I did in October) I sent them a print-out of my itinerary as per matrix with the tax break down in Economy and the fare/tax break down for the fare in Business, along with the UK documentation stating that tax was only collectable on transit itineraries with stops over 24 hours.

UA quickly responded along with a call from someone at UA who is a Sr Manager in Revenue Accounting in the UK office (email address available to anyone that PMs asking for it) who said they were not aware of this and he was planning on getting this now fixed and making the station manager aware.

Seems to me that UA is aware of this issue, and has made the choice to continue to allow it to happen to defraud customers of their money.

This is why people need to file complaints with the DOT and let them know that since UA is a US company and the flights are occurring from/to the US that the DOT does get involved.

mgcsinc

You're talking to two lawyers. The "basic law" you're talking about doesn't exist. You're conflating a bunch of things and creating a non-existent legal principle out of whole cloth. Nothing that you've written in this post reflects the reality of the situation. Sorry.

gengar

Completely wrong. The DOT has statutory authority with respect to unfair/deceptive trade practices by airlines that even so much as market to US citizens, much less as in this case a US-based carrier like UA. To make it out like only a UK entity will do anything is absurd.

Your comment about EU authorities in the event of UK consumer protections is also inaccurate, as statutory consumer protections in the UK are essentially all UK legislation of EU directives, and thus are handled by UK-based entities (see, e.g., Citizen's Advice Bureau).

flyerCO

Sorry but I've dealt with the DOT on this very issue in the past with another countries taxes. They will not make a determination on if a foreign government tax applies or not without input from that government. Only if the foreign government says it doesn't apply will the DOT go after an airline for collecting the fee.

Under your thinking the DOT could unilaterally rule that the UK Luxury tax on plane tickets shouldn't be paid. They then could sue an airline for collecting the fee that they're legally required to. Sorry, but that's not the case.

However from the posting above, it seems like this whole issue is moot. UA is apparently now saying the fee shouldn't have been collected. Now the DOT can do what it wants because the airline isn't contesting the fee was wrong.

mgcsinc

You continue to conflate the two transactions. The DOT action would have no effect whatsoever on the transaction between UA and the foreign tax agency.

That you've interacted with a confused or obstructionist person at the DOT does not change the fact that they have authority here, and that the "basic law" you keep referring to does not exist.

flyerCO

Yes it would have an effect. The airline would be violating the DOT order when they collect the fee they're mandated by law to collect in the foreign country. If they follow it like in my example above they would be violating the law in the UK and would be liable to be prevented from operating there. I may only be fairly new to the legal profession, but I've asked three other lawyers in the firm that have over 20 years experience each with aviation law. They all agree that the DOT will not rule on foreign taxes without input from the foreign government. Doing otherwise would undermine the principle of sovereignty.

Do you think the UK/EU would issue a ruling that EU airlines shouldn't collect US taxes without consulting with the US if it's correct.

With that said, I think neither of us are going to convince the other of our position, and while I welcome your reply, I'd suggest we chat in private if we want to continue the conversation.