Jeff comments on loss of "unmanaged" corporate traffic/PRASM at JP Morgan conference.
Mar 5, 2013, 2:24 pm
#121
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,645
The new UA just offers a wider range of places I can go in coach, even as 1K. But I can do that on other airlines, too, and with UA's coach not being all that desirable, I'm giving much more weight to pricing, scheduling, and coach product, thus booking away from UA, especially on international travel (though often to *A credited to UA, because I do still manage lounge access and free bags).
UA serves a lot of places, which should make accumulating loyalty with them easy. But they also have to make it worthwhile.
UA serves a lot of places, which should make accumulating loyalty with them easy. But they also have to make it worthwhile.
Mar 5, 2013, 2:49 pm
#122
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: YVR SFO
Programs: UA G
Posts: 4,866
2. VX doesn't hold a candle. True. But, look where they fly: NYC, PDX, SEA, LAX, SAN, ORD, DCA, BOS, FLL. These are all cities that I fly to. Whereas you gave me a list of UA domestic destinations that I've NEVER flown to, VX gives me a list of domestic destinations that I actually do fly to. Hence, the size of the network isn't what matters. What matters is if they fly where I need to fly. VX does so disproportionally.
Your argument relies on someone's desire to stay with a single airline. The only reason for this is the loyalty and if the loyalty program is sub par then there is really no reason not to spread the spend across many carriers. The argument made by others is that it will take more than network and ops to keep/bring new customers and I think you just agreed with others.
Mar 5, 2013, 2:51 pm
#123
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: PDX
Programs: DL DM, AS MVP 100K, Amtrak peon, Colbert Lifetime Platinum
Posts: 4,534
With all of the talk about route network, I'm curious about the signs UA has posted in the airports and jet bridges. The advertisement boasts 370 destinations. Does anyone know if that counts partner flights? I'm guess it does, but I did some googling and I couldn't find the answer.
Mar 5, 2013, 2:55 pm
#124
Suspended
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Kettlesville, home of GLOBAL SERVICES, (.....es)
Programs: Mileage Plus in America and Qantas down under
Posts: 44
Here's the bottom line folks - ole whatshisname's "over-entitled" comment is very much like ole Willard Milton Romney's 47% comment - they both wish the general public didn't have such a stark example of their true feelings, but it's a bit too late - this train (er plane) has already left.... HAPPY TRAILS
Mar 5, 2013, 3:04 pm
#125
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: DEN
Programs: 2012 Plat-2013 Plat-2014 Silver-2015 GM
Posts: 818
Your comment above, like the one Smi/J made, misses the point. Where someone fly's, only allows their name to be included in the selection process. The next step in the process, which is choosing one of the contenders, includes a host of variables. In my case personally, UA is getting the nod 50-60% less than in the past. Other factors do come into play now.
Mar 5, 2013, 3:08 pm
#126
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2008
Programs: 6 year GS, now 2MM Jeff-ugee, *wood LTPlt, SkyPeso PLT
Posts: 6,526
Indeed. The network was a compelling argument when the question was, What carrier can I fly so that I can get upgraded and treated well on most of my flying? And when I focused that business all on old UA, I managed to get enough status to continue to get upgrades; their network made it easy for someone who rarely goes the same place twice.
The new UA just offers a wider range of places I can go in coach, even as 1K. But I can do that on other airlines, too, and with UA's coach not being all that desirable, I'm giving much more weight to pricing, scheduling, and coach product, thus booking away from UA, especially on international travel (though often to *A credited to UA, because I do still manage lounge access and free bags).
UA serves a lot of places, which should make accumulating loyalty with them easy. But they also have to make it worthwhile.
The new UA just offers a wider range of places I can go in coach, even as 1K. But I can do that on other airlines, too, and with UA's coach not being all that desirable, I'm giving much more weight to pricing, scheduling, and coach product, thus booking away from UA, especially on international travel (though often to *A credited to UA, because I do still manage lounge access and free bags).
UA serves a lot of places, which should make accumulating loyalty with them easy. But they also have to make it worthwhile.
Yes, out of SFO, the current UA probably gives me another 10 of my 120 legs a year that are direct, over flying a connection. But some of those are RJs, and often its a non-stop one way, connecting back as the one flight is not a useful time.
SFO is different in this way. If you fly a lot, UA may go (on its own metal) to 40-50% of the places you need to go directly. This is far different than at ORD/IAH/EWR where UA goes to probably 90% of the places you might go direct. So the lock in is much lighter as SFO is not a traditional hub and spoke hub for anyone.
Now in return for the benifit of avoiding an extra 10 connections, I get to be jammed into RJ-145/CRJ700s for long flights, and the other "benifits" (bad award redemptions, poor food, bad coffee, no pillows, etc) that UA is offering.
Given the choice between UA and mainline, better service, and a few more connections on DL, DL is getting a lot of my business. And if the upgrades I get as a GS go away (as they will next year for sure) then UA will get NONE of my business, and the airline that is giving me upgrades (DL) will get it all.
Sitting in Y for those few extra directs on UA is not an appetizing deal, and it is (at SFO anyway) where you will probably be with TODs.
Last edited by spin88; Mar 5, 2013 at 3:14 pm
Mar 5, 2013, 4:12 pm
#127
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Portland, OR, USA
Programs: UA 1K 3 Million/ex-many year GS, AA PLT/2 Mil, AS MVPG, HH Dia, Starwood Life Plat, Hertz PC
Posts: 1,401
My view is that the network only provides a benefit in two cases:
1. If UA flies direct, at a convenient time, to my destination, and nobody else does. This is almost never true. There is only one destination (SFO-LIH) where UA is the only direct option. For all other destinations I fly to, there is competition, also direct, also with decent schedules. If UA doesn't fly direct, then I can get just about anywhere in the world in the same time that it would take to connect with UA, so UA rarely has any advantage.
2. In the past, the route network meant that I could fly almost anywhere in the world, and I could stay with UA. I did this because I wanted 1K/GS status. I wanted 1K/GS status because of the benefits it provided, most significantly - upgrades. Now that the benefits have been diminished and iupgrades are far less frequent, the benefit of being 1K/GS is far lower than it was before. Therefore, the motivation to stick with UA instead of a competitor is diminished. Therefore, the route network is worthless. Put another way, when I evaluated AA's Exp status match offer, it was not a smart choice for me, because their route network is so small that I'd find it nearly impossible to fly 100,000 miles on AA metal. Therefore, I could not get the benefits that their status offers. With UA, I can get the benefits, but the benefits are diminished, hence not worth having anymore.
Therefore, route network = irrelevant.
1. If UA flies direct, at a convenient time, to my destination, and nobody else does. This is almost never true. There is only one destination (SFO-LIH) where UA is the only direct option. For all other destinations I fly to, there is competition, also direct, also with decent schedules. If UA doesn't fly direct, then I can get just about anywhere in the world in the same time that it would take to connect with UA, so UA rarely has any advantage.
2. In the past, the route network meant that I could fly almost anywhere in the world, and I could stay with UA. I did this because I wanted 1K/GS status. I wanted 1K/GS status because of the benefits it provided, most significantly - upgrades. Now that the benefits have been diminished and iupgrades are far less frequent, the benefit of being 1K/GS is far lower than it was before. Therefore, the motivation to stick with UA instead of a competitor is diminished. Therefore, the route network is worthless. Put another way, when I evaluated AA's Exp status match offer, it was not a smart choice for me, because their route network is so small that I'd find it nearly impossible to fly 100,000 miles on AA metal. Therefore, I could not get the benefits that their status offers. With UA, I can get the benefits, but the benefits are diminished, hence not worth having anymore.
Therefore, route network = irrelevant.
Mar 5, 2013, 4:17 pm
#128
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: LAX/TPE
Programs: United 1K, JAL Sapphire, SPG Lifetime Platinum, National Executive Elite, Hertz PC, Avis PC
Posts: 42,222
Either your product and loyalty program differentiates, or the money will be flying out the window to your partners or competitors.
Mar 5, 2013, 7:13 pm
#129
Join Date: Oct 2009
Programs: UA 1K 1MM
Posts: 455
My point exactly. And if you think its irrelevant for you without a good FF program, it is even more the case for someone like me who is 1k for life. The only incentive for me to fly UA when it isn't simply the best schedule is to try to use up the upgrade carts they give me. And I used to go out of my way to earn GS.
Mar 6, 2013, 6:28 am
#130
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Chicago: ORD, MDW
Programs: United Million Mile Flyer, Hilton Silver, Marriott Gold, DL, AA WN
Posts: 514
My view is that the network only provides a benefit in two cases:
1. If UA flies direct, at a convenient time, to my destination, and nobody else does. This is almost never true. There is only one destination (SFO-LIH) where UA is the only direct option. For all other destinations I fly to, there is competition, also direct, also with decent schedules. If UA doesn't fly direct, then I can get just about anywhere in the world in the same time that it would take to connect with UA, so UA rarely has any advantage.
2. In the past, the route network meant that I could fly almost anywhere in the world, and I could stay with UA. I did this because I wanted 1K/GS status. I wanted 1K/GS status because of the benefits it provided, most significantly - upgrades. Now that the benefits have been diminished and upgrades are far less frequent, the benefit of being 1K/GS is far lower than it was before. Therefore, the motivation to stick with UA instead of a competitor is diminished. Therefore, the route network is worthless. Put another way, when I evaluated AA's Exp status match offer, it was not a smart choice for me, because their route network is so small that I'd find it nearly impossible to fly 100,000 miles on AA metal. Therefore, I could not get the benefits that their status offers. With UA, I can get the benefits, but the benefits are diminished, hence not worth having anymore.
Therefore, route network = irrelevant.
1. If UA flies direct, at a convenient time, to my destination, and nobody else does. This is almost never true. There is only one destination (SFO-LIH) where UA is the only direct option. For all other destinations I fly to, there is competition, also direct, also with decent schedules. If UA doesn't fly direct, then I can get just about anywhere in the world in the same time that it would take to connect with UA, so UA rarely has any advantage.
2. In the past, the route network meant that I could fly almost anywhere in the world, and I could stay with UA. I did this because I wanted 1K/GS status. I wanted 1K/GS status because of the benefits it provided, most significantly - upgrades. Now that the benefits have been diminished and upgrades are far less frequent, the benefit of being 1K/GS is far lower than it was before. Therefore, the motivation to stick with UA instead of a competitor is diminished. Therefore, the route network is worthless. Put another way, when I evaluated AA's Exp status match offer, it was not a smart choice for me, because their route network is so small that I'd find it nearly impossible to fly 100,000 miles on AA metal. Therefore, I could not get the benefits that their status offers. With UA, I can get the benefits, but the benefits are diminished, hence not worth having anymore.
Therefore, route network = irrelevant.
Well said. All things being equal, if I am going to sit in coach, not be recognized as a Million Miler, and board in a group as large as the number of coach seats, I can choose any other airline.
United may keep me coming back for Economy Plus, but if I have to sit in an E+ middle seat, I will choose a window or aisle in regular coach. If I have to do that, I have a choice of airlines. Every airline has regular coach - some even have better regular coach seats.
I WANT to fly United. I have been loyal to UA since they were headquartered at MDW (thus my name). I have had a mileage plus account since the second month of the program.
Yet, all things being equal, they are driving me away!
What folks are saying is network / ops are necessary items for successful but of themselves alone are not sufficient for success. There are other factors that matter -- for some it maybe price, for others it may be service, .... loyalty reward .... schedule .....
Network & ops are important / necessary but there is more to a person's choice in provider.
Network & ops are important / necessary but there is more to a person's choice in provider.
Just today in the media I read that while United has been trying to get its merged act together DL has been growing in the NYC area, and just today announced plans to grow at LAX - with mainline metal.
Where has United grown lately - except using regional aircraft?
(OK, I'll give you some 787 destinations, but, at least for the time being, that if off the schedule.)
Last edited by J.Edward; Mar 6, 2013 at 7:18 am Reason: merge
Mar 6, 2013, 8:10 am
#131
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,645
United may keep me coming back for Economy Plus, but if I have to sit in an E+ middle seat, I will choose a window or aisle in regular coach. If I have to do that, I have a choice of airlines. Every airline has regular coach - some even have better regular coach seats.
I WANT to fly United. I have been loyal to UA since they were headquartered at MDW (thus my name). I have had a mileage plus account since the second month of the program.
Yet, all things being equal, they are driving me away!
I WANT to fly United. I have been loyal to UA since they were headquartered at MDW (thus my name). I have had a mileage plus account since the second month of the program.
Yet, all things being equal, they are driving me away!
As for E+, that's as irrelevant to me as the route network, because I've never flown on an sCO aircraft that has E+ and with the endless aircraft substitutions that are going on, I never know if I'll end up on sUA or sCO, therefore, I never know if I'll have E+ or E-. And, the sCO E- is a torture chamber to me because I can't stand the endless loop of cheap advertising they force me to see from every possible angle and field of view. Four hours watching the same three advertisements repeat and repeat and repeat from the left, from the right, from every angle. It's horrific. More and more, I've found myself stuck on those aircraft.
Mar 6, 2013, 8:23 am
#132
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: New York, NY
Programs: UA, AA, DL, Hertz, Avis, National, Hyatt, Hilton, SPG, Marriott
Posts: 9,454
Mar 6, 2013, 8:40 am
#133
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,645
Are you saying that most sCO don't have DTV that are always on with endless loops of advertising? Or, are you saying that most sCO do have DTV that are always on with endless loops of advertising but also have E+ so you can have a few inches of additional legroom while your brain is being fried by the endless negative stimulation from every angle of view?
Last edited by iluv2fly; Mar 6, 2013 at 9:00 am Reason: unnecessary
Mar 6, 2013, 8:54 am
#134
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: LAX NYC
Programs: UA 1K 3.01MM, Global Entry, RCC LIFETIME (pd $2k in '90)), HH GOLD, Pan Am Clipper Club Lifetime
Posts: 178
On my last flight the flight attendant announced over the PA system how to turn off the TV monitors so you would be subject to all the "commercials".
Mar 6, 2013, 9:04 am
#135
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,645
Here's the thing:
1. You can turn it off by pressing the down button 5-10 times in a row.
2. It will turn back on at multiple points in the flight, so you will need to keep pressing that button at least 50-70 times per flight to keep it off.
3. The off button is depressed and hard to reach. The on button is raised and the slightest brush of your arm will turn it back on again.
4. Most FAs don't announce, most people don't listen, don't know, don't understand, or don't care. So, few of them get turned off anyway.