UAs Official Response to HKG Ticketing/IT Error: Redeem @ Correct Amount or Redeposit
Jul 19, 2012, 2:48 pm
#1546
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 794
I, admittedly, know nothing about "Award Accelerator."
However, if you can go on the United website and purchase the necessary miles for a particular trip for $2,800, and be reasonably assured that you can use the purchased miles for your intended trip, then why in the world would anyone ever pay more than the mileage cost for a ticket?
Thus, if, hypothetically, a F ticket to HKG from SFO costs $5000, but you can buy the needed miles for the same ticket and journey for $2,800, why would you buy the revenue ticket?
What am I missing here?
However, if you can go on the United website and purchase the necessary miles for a particular trip for $2,800, and be reasonably assured that you can use the purchased miles for your intended trip, then why in the world would anyone ever pay more than the mileage cost for a ticket?
Thus, if, hypothetically, a F ticket to HKG from SFO costs $5000, but you can buy the needed miles for the same ticket and journey for $2,800, why would you buy the revenue ticket?
What am I missing here?
Jul 19, 2012, 2:48 pm
#1547
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 18
No one has really touched on the nature of what a "mistake" means in a contract action. A mistake is a defense to a breach of contract. That is, there is clearly a contract here (UA offered to sell these tickets for 4 miles, and there was acceptance and consideration). Now generally "mistake" would allow UA to get out of the contract, as a defense. But the DoT regs pretty much clearly say that mistake is not a defense. Contract law is "common law", except for statutory law that changes it. This, being enacted regulation, would have the force of law.
No one can say that United is completely innocent here. They were already put on notice that mistake fares couldn't be touched (that DoT FAQ has been around for a while before this happened). Yes, it's absolutely inequitable and the people that pounced on this fare are getting an unbelievably awesome deal... one that they otherwise would not and should not have gotten. But this DoT reg that takes away the mistake defense pretty much says that they can get it. And United can only blame itself for having a shoddy second rate system in place. They knew the risks (DoT put them on notice with this regulation and clarifications of the regulation) and failed to do anything about it.
Jul 19, 2012, 2:49 pm
#1548
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,859
You have to be a bit creative to use that option.
Plus award ticket won't get you any EQM.
Jul 19, 2012, 2:49 pm
#1549
Original Member, Ambassador: External Miles and Points Resources
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Digital Nomad Wandering the Earth - Currently in LIMA, PERU
Posts: 58,620
They sell it, and apparently some suckers buy it, UNITED takes their payment and smiles.
They sell it for 4 miles and they are the sucker suddenly UNITED is not smiling any more.
Jul 19, 2012, 2:54 pm
#1550
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: SEA & RDM
Programs: UA - 1MM, DL Diamond, AS MVP75, Marriott Titanium, Hilton Gold
Posts: 8,037
I don't see why the DoT would care if it's "wrong". That's a moral argument, not a legal one. The DoT is not into morality, but legality.
No one has really touched on the nature of what a "mistake" means in a contract action. A mistake is a defense to a breach of contract. That is, there is clearly a contract here (UA offered to sell these tickets for 4 miles, and there was acceptance and consideration). Now generally "mistake" would allow UA to get out of the contract, as a defense. But the DoT regs pretty much clearly say that mistake is not a defense. Contract law is "common law", except for statutory law that changes it. This, being enacted regulation, would have the force of law.
No one can say that United is completely innocent here. They were already put on notice that mistake fares couldn't be touched (that DoT FAQ has been around for a while before this happened). Yes, it's absolutely inequitable and the people that pounced on this fare are getting an unbelievably awesome deal... one that they otherwise would not and should not have gotten. But this DoT reg that takes away the mistake defense pretty much says that they can get it. And United can only blame itself for having a shoddy second rate system in place. They knew the risks (DoT put them on notice with this regulation and clarifications of the regulation) and failed to do anything about it.
No one has really touched on the nature of what a "mistake" means in a contract action. A mistake is a defense to a breach of contract. That is, there is clearly a contract here (UA offered to sell these tickets for 4 miles, and there was acceptance and consideration). Now generally "mistake" would allow UA to get out of the contract, as a defense. But the DoT regs pretty much clearly say that mistake is not a defense. Contract law is "common law", except for statutory law that changes it. This, being enacted regulation, would have the force of law.
No one can say that United is completely innocent here. They were already put on notice that mistake fares couldn't be touched (that DoT FAQ has been around for a while before this happened). Yes, it's absolutely inequitable and the people that pounced on this fare are getting an unbelievably awesome deal... one that they otherwise would not and should not have gotten. But this DoT reg that takes away the mistake defense pretty much says that they can get it. And United can only blame itself for having a shoddy second rate system in place. They knew the risks (DoT put them on notice with this regulation and clarifications of the regulation) and failed to do anything about it.
Jul 19, 2012, 2:57 pm
#1551
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: BOS
Programs: UAL Premier Gold, HHonors Gold, B6 Mosaic
Posts: 135
When I lived in the northern suburbs of Chicago twenty-ish years ago, we had a UAL ticket office in a strip mall a few minutes from my house. Back in the days before e-tickets took off, you could walk in, interact with a human being, and walk out with a valid ticket. Let's pretend that one of those human beings had started selling first class tix to HKG for 4 miles and $40 to one lucky individual, who went home, picked up the phone and called family and friends to alert them of the deal. Suddenly there's a line stretching out the door as the rogue agent continues to sell tickets for 4 miles, and this goes on for a few hours before a higher-up figures out what's going on and stops the deal.
Now substitute a computerized system for a human agent and you've got pretty much the same situation. UA would probably be expected to honor the tickets in the first scenario, right? So why wouldn't they be expected to do the same if a computer (or, more likely, a computer programmer) screws up? As has been pointed out, when the DOT changed the rules, they let United know. The airline obviously didn't take proper precautions, and when their lack of oversight came back to bite them in the behind, they cry foul.
It'll be an expensive mistake, but there's a silver lining to UA in all of this - getting your IT act together now pays dividends down the road. Who knows - had this one not happened, perhaps an even more expensive mistake would have come along in the future.
Now substitute a computerized system for a human agent and you've got pretty much the same situation. UA would probably be expected to honor the tickets in the first scenario, right? So why wouldn't they be expected to do the same if a computer (or, more likely, a computer programmer) screws up? As has been pointed out, when the DOT changed the rules, they let United know. The airline obviously didn't take proper precautions, and when their lack of oversight came back to bite them in the behind, they cry foul.
It'll be an expensive mistake, but there's a silver lining to UA in all of this - getting your IT act together now pays dividends down the road. Who knows - had this one not happened, perhaps an even more expensive mistake would have come along in the future.
Jul 19, 2012, 2:58 pm
#1552
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Francisco/Tel Aviv/YYZ
Programs: CO 1K-MM
Posts: 10,762
Except the DoT has discretion here and there is a huge difference between paying $1200 for a mistake biz fare to Europe and getting a GlobalFirst ticket to asia for free. That isn't a mistake fare that is just obviously a system error...especially since the proper miles were quoted until you actually "purchased" the ticket. No reasonable person should expect United to have to honor those tickets.
is there a big difference between 39+ tax and 4 miles + tax?
Jul 19, 2012, 2:58 pm
#1553
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 18
Except the DoT has discretion here and there is a huge difference between paying $1200 for a mistake biz fare to Europe and getting a GlobalFirst ticket to asia for free. That isn't a mistake fare that is just obviously a system error...especially since the proper miles were quoted until you actually "purchased" the ticket. No reasonable person should expect United to have to honor those tickets.
Jul 19, 2012, 2:58 pm
#1554
Join Date: Jan 2007
Programs: PC Pl, UA 1K, CC Gl
Posts: 2,235
Jul 19, 2012, 2:58 pm
#1555
Original Member, Ambassador: External Miles and Points Resources
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Digital Nomad Wandering the Earth - Currently in LIMA, PERU
Posts: 58,620
Except the DoT has discretion here and there is a huge difference between paying $1200 for a mistake biz fare to Europe and getting a GlobalFirst ticket to asia for free. That isn't a mistake fare that is just obviously a system error...especially since the proper miles were quoted until you actually "purchased" the ticket. No reasonable person should expect United to have to honor those tickets.
So no reasonable person should expect them to not honor those tickets.
And the count on thread goes up and up, up and up, aaaaaaallll through the town!
Meh, for that kind of scratch they would HAVE to be a sucker to fly on UNITED metal. @:-)
Last edited by iluv2fly; Jul 19, 2012 at 3:09 pm Reason: merge
Jul 19, 2012, 2:59 pm
#1556
Join Date: May 2012
Location: DCA, lived MCI, SEA/PDX,BUF (born/raised)
Programs: Marriott (Silver/Gold), IHG, Carlson, Best Western, Choice( Gold), AS (MVP), WN, UA
Posts: 8,736
I don't see why the DoT would care if it's "wrong". That's a moral argument, not a legal one. The DoT is not into morality, but legality.
No one has really touched on the nature of what a "mistake" means in a contract action. A mistake is a defense to a breach of contract. That is, there is clearly a contract here (UA offered to sell these tickets for 4 miles, and there was acceptance and consideration). Now generally "mistake" would allow UA to get out of the contract, as a defense. But the DoT regs pretty much clearly say that mistake is not a defense. Contract law is "common law", except for statutory law that changes it. This, being enacted regulation, would have the force of law.
No one can say that United is completely innocent here. They were already put on notice that mistake fares couldn't be touched (that DoT FAQ has been around for a while before this happened). Yes, it's absolutely inequitable and the people that pounced on this fare are getting an unbelievably awesome deal... one that they otherwise would not and should not have gotten. But this DoT reg that takes away the mistake defense pretty much says that they can get it. And United can only blame itself for having a shoddy second rate system in place. They knew the risks (DoT put them on notice with this regulation and clarifications of the regulation) and failed to do anything about it.
No one has really touched on the nature of what a "mistake" means in a contract action. A mistake is a defense to a breach of contract. That is, there is clearly a contract here (UA offered to sell these tickets for 4 miles, and there was acceptance and consideration). Now generally "mistake" would allow UA to get out of the contract, as a defense. But the DoT regs pretty much clearly say that mistake is not a defense. Contract law is "common law", except for statutory law that changes it. This, being enacted regulation, would have the force of law.
No one can say that United is completely innocent here. They were already put on notice that mistake fares couldn't be touched (that DoT FAQ has been around for a while before this happened). Yes, it's absolutely inequitable and the people that pounced on this fare are getting an unbelievably awesome deal... one that they otherwise would not and should not have gotten. But this DoT reg that takes away the mistake defense pretty much says that they can get it. And United can only blame itself for having a shoddy second rate system in place. They knew the risks (DoT put them on notice with this regulation and clarifications of the regulation) and failed to do anything about it.
United/DOT have to investigate to find the cause of this mistaken airfare. If it was due to hacking into their system and changing the fare in China then a new can of worms applies to this which then nulifies DOT rules claiming they have to honor the fare. If its is demonstrated this was hacked then they can kill the reservations except for those who are in the middle of their travel (Thus so people arent abandoned).
I wouldnt be surprised if its an internal IT error they actually charge someone with the crime as a fallguy to then execute the legality of canceling tickets.
Jul 19, 2012, 3:01 pm
#1557
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Sonoma
Programs: Several here and there, but not as many during my road warrior days!
Posts: 715
Jul 19, 2012, 3:03 pm
#1558
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,740
Buy a fully refundable long-haul ticket. Purchase the 'Mileage Accelerator' offer for 2 cpm. Mileage Accelerator purchases credit immediately and are non-refundable. Then cancel your ticket. Lather, Rinse, Repeat.
People either
1) Don't know about the option
2) Feel it is unethical and/or likely to lead to an audit
3) Have a company that pays for the tickets with no fuss
4) Feel their time is more valuable than the time spent to buy and cancel dozens of tickets.
People either
1) Don't know about the option
2) Feel it is unethical and/or likely to lead to an audit
3) Have a company that pays for the tickets with no fuss
4) Feel their time is more valuable than the time spent to buy and cancel dozens of tickets.
If nothing else, this thread has been educational on a number of levels.
Jul 19, 2012, 3:04 pm
#1559
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: SEA & RDM
Programs: UA - 1MM, DL Diamond, AS MVP75, Marriott Titanium, Hilton Gold
Posts: 8,037
You said they were on notice for "mistake fares" which is something specific and there are lots of examples of what those are. This wasn't a mistake fare...this was united leaving the door unlocked and unattended allowing people to walk in and grab as many free tickets as they wanted.
Jul 19, 2012, 3:06 pm
#1560
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: DEN
Programs: UA Gold-MM, AA Gold-MM, F9-Silver, Hyatt Something, Marriott Gold, IHG Plat, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 6,393