Oct 1, 2013, 3:03 pm
Last edit by: Ari
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• • • • •
[Please post
NLY status updates and relevant Q&A here.]Plaintiff: George Lagen, on behalf of himself and all others similarly situated
Defendant: United Continental Holdings, Inc. and United Airlines, Inc.
Filed In The United States District Court For The Northern District Of Illinois Eastern Division
Case No. 1:12-cv-04056
Filed: 05/24/2012
Judge Harry D. Leinenweber
Magistrate Judge Young B. Kim
Proposed class: All persons, as of midnight, December 31, 2011, who were members of the Million Mile Program under United Airlines’ Mileage Plus frequent flyer program.
Filings/rulings can be found on www.pacer.gov (requires registration)
12 June 2012 - Amended Class Action Complaint filed
Spring 2013 - Court denies United's request to close case
Spring 2013 - Plaintiff files for suit to become a class action, United asks Judge before he decides if there could be limited discovery (which typically happens after case becomes class-action). Judge allows it.
August 2013 - Depositions/Limited Discovery completed and transcripts were handed over to the court.
22 October 2013 - Pursuant to an order of the Court, both sides filed cross-motions for summary judgment:
Plaintiff contends that he is a United pre-merger Million Miler, that United promised Million Miler fliers certain lifetime benefits on its web site, including two regional upgrades every year and Premier Executive status, which provided certain delineated benefits (e.g., 100% mileage bonus). Plaintiff cites deposition testimony from United stating "lifetime" means: "as long as they were really able to fly … as long as someone is coming on a plane and alive and capable of flying." Plaintiff concludes by stating that United has breached its contract with its pre-merger Million Miler fliers by reducing the lifetime benefits they were promised.
United contends in its motion that Million Miler is part of the MileagePlus program, that United reserved the right to make any changes it wishes to the MileagePlus program, and that the changes it made that plaintiff now complains of are therefore contractually permissible. United does not admit, and does not address, the "lifetime" benefit statements that it made on its website.
23 January 2014 - Judge denies Plaintiff's motion for summary judgment and grants United's cross-motion for summary judgment. Judgment entered in favor of United.
The Judge begins his Opinion with a quote from Job: “The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away” and then holds that Plaintiff has not produced any evidence that UA made him an offer to participate in a separate MM program.
The Court noted that: “The sum total of his evidence is vague references to ‘electronic and written correspondence’ from United, which, in both instances postdates his qualification as a Million Mile flyer and was not directed to him; and a 1997 Newsletter from United announcing the creation of the program he could not remember receiving. However the card he did receive from United, admitting him to MililionMile Flyer Program, shows that his new status is clearly a status within the Mileage Plus Frequent Flyer Program, as does the form letters United sent to applicants advising them of their admission to the MillionMile Flyer program. In fact, Plaintiff in his Complaint alleges that the MillionMile Flyer program was part of the Mileage Plus program. He has not produced any document that comes close to substantiating that the programs were separate and distinct."
Bottom line: The Court agreed with United's position that the Plaintiff had not proved the existence of a separate contract between itself and the Million Milers.
Full decision: http://media.wandr.me/MMerOpinion.pdf
20 February 2014
Plaintiff filed a notice of appeal of the trial court's decision. The record on appeal is due by March 13, 2014.
Appeal docs available at:
- http://media.wandr.me/UAL-MM-Appeal-filed-2-20-14.pdf
- http://media.wandr.me/UAL-MM-letter-of-appeal.pdf
8 September 2014
Oral arguments were heard by a three judge panel. Links to the original MP3 of the Court's recording and also some transcription can be found around post 2350 and for several more following that.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/23496499-post2361.html
22 December 2014
Affirmed over a dissent.
http://media.ca7.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/rssExec.pl?Submit=Display&Path=Y2014/D12-22/C:14-1375:J:Wood:aut:T:fnOp:N:1474449:S:0
Million Miler Sues United [Judgment for UA Jan 2014] Judgment Affirmed Dec 2014
Jan 23, 2013, 5:31 pm
#811
Join Date: Jun 2006
Programs: UA1P MM, Delta, AA, IC Royal Ambassador, Starwood Gold
Posts: 333
Jan 23, 2013, 8:26 pm
#812
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2000
Location: TPA for now. Hopefully LIS for retirement
Posts: 13,705
Thanks, Pat89339! I appreciate the work it took to post those links, and will look through those posts when I have time. I looked at a couple, though, and I didn't see any indication that sbedelman is a litigator?
DGellman, I used the search function but did not come up with any posts from yours on this thread commenting on the merits of the plaintiffs' claims (if that is what you meant by saying "Yes"). Can you point me to them?
DGellman, I used the search function but did not come up with any posts from yours on this thread commenting on the merits of the plaintiffs' claims (if that is what you meant by saying "Yes"). Can you point me to them?
Jan 23, 2013, 8:31 pm
#813
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: ORD
Programs: AA EXP,2MM, DL Gold,Starwood PLT
Posts: 3,876
What they are really saying is the amount of miles you fly is not what matters so much to our bottom line, it's what you actually PAY to do so. US airlines are wising up that millage runners are not good for the bottom line in many cases.
Jan 23, 2013, 8:35 pm
#814
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2000
Location: TPA for now. Hopefully LIS for retirement
Posts: 13,705
Fredd pointed out this post:
The consideration issue could end up being key. Was there really consideration for the lifetime benefits at issue?
I understand the argument that people "stuck with" UA and chose to buy tickets on it because of the "offer." I am not sure that is a winner, though. To me it seems that spending money is consideration in exchange for the air travel that was provided, not for a FF program that really does not promise anything to begin with.
And the "I stuck with UA instead of going to Airline XYZ because of a promise" argument seems to lead more down the path of a detrimental reliance / promissory estoppel claim instead of a breach of contract claim. That would be much more difficult to establish.
Anyway, gotta sleep now.
I understand the argument that people "stuck with" UA and chose to buy tickets on it because of the "offer." I am not sure that is a winner, though. To me it seems that spending money is consideration in exchange for the air travel that was provided, not for a FF program that really does not promise anything to begin with.
And the "I stuck with UA instead of going to Airline XYZ because of a promise" argument seems to lead more down the path of a detrimental reliance / promissory estoppel claim instead of a breach of contract claim. That would be much more difficult to establish.
Anyway, gotta sleep now.
Last edited by Bear96; Jan 24, 2013 at 7:15 am Reason: Translated into English now that I am more awake
Jan 23, 2013, 8:37 pm
#815
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: ORD
Programs: AA EXP,2MM, DL Gold,Starwood PLT
Posts: 3,876
Fredd pointed out this post:
The consideration issue could end up being key. Was there really consideration for the lifetime benefits issue?
I understand the argument that there was is essentially that people "stuck with" UA and chose to buy tickets on them because of the "offer." I am not sure that is a winner, though. To me it seems that spending money is consideration in exchange for the air travel that was provided, not for a FF program that really does not promise anything to begin with.
And the "I stuck with UA instead of going to Airline XYZ because of a promise" argument seems to lead more down the path of a detrimental reliance claim which is much more difficult to establish, rather than a breach of contract claim.
Anyway, gotta sleep now.
The consideration issue could end up being key. Was there really consideration for the lifetime benefits issue?
I understand the argument that there was is essentially that people "stuck with" UA and chose to buy tickets on them because of the "offer." I am not sure that is a winner, though. To me it seems that spending money is consideration in exchange for the air travel that was provided, not for a FF program that really does not promise anything to begin with.
And the "I stuck with UA instead of going to Airline XYZ because of a promise" argument seems to lead more down the path of a detrimental reliance claim which is much more difficult to establish, rather than a breach of contract claim.
Anyway, gotta sleep now.
Jan 23, 2013, 9:34 pm
#816
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Chicago USA
Programs: *A Junkie, SQ PPS, Skywards Gold, 2 Million Mile Flyer;*wood LT Plat, BA MM
Posts: 1,762
I fly about 14-18K miles a month with UA domestic. I will be a MM in approx. 24 months with UA alone, not including 200K with DL, 300 WN segments, 70K AA and another 50K on the others.
When WN changed their program from segments to points, I never flew them again. Ever, and I was loyal for all the short hops, SFO,LAX,LAS,PHX,SJC,SMF,OAK. They are still profitable and doing well without me but my choice is made. Heck I even let a few free tickets expire just so I don't have to go back to them, how dare they change the program on how I earn benefits.
If you can walk away from UA then do it. I'm sure WN misses me with the emails I do receive but I won't go back. My UA miles not status go further. Status perks are something that have to be on-going not inherited or what you did for me in 1984.
With that said, should I stay with UA? For me yes, but when the MM comes, it's just another day knowing the terms can change at anytime. I'll take what I get and enjoy it for as long as it's available. Nothing is permanent in the airline industry.
When WN changed their program from segments to points, I never flew them again. Ever, and I was loyal for all the short hops, SFO,LAX,LAS,PHX,SJC,SMF,OAK. They are still profitable and doing well without me but my choice is made. Heck I even let a few free tickets expire just so I don't have to go back to them, how dare they change the program on how I earn benefits.
If you can walk away from UA then do it. I'm sure WN misses me with the emails I do receive but I won't go back. My UA miles not status go further. Status perks are something that have to be on-going not inherited or what you did for me in 1984.
With that said, should I stay with UA? For me yes, but when the MM comes, it's just another day knowing the terms can change at anytime. I'll take what I get and enjoy it for as long as it's available. Nothing is permanent in the airline industry.
I don't like to assume, but 18K a month domestic must be transcon, I would have status matched with AA and left UA in the dust.
What I care about is the principle. Every MP member, pre-merger (PM), was told year after year after year, for decades, we would receive "x, y & z" benefits, if we sat our rear-ends in a United airplane, regardless of where, front or back, for 1,000,000 miles. And when the AA, DL, and CO were applying class of service bonus miles, credit card purchases, partner airline miles towards MMiler status, United would ADD more benefits creating the gold standard of MMiler status.
I passed BIS 1MM and by 2014 I would have hit the 2MM mark BIS. With the merger I became a 2MM.
What United did - to all it's PM MP members is a disgrace. There were people who were at 750K or 950K or 500K flying to get MMiler status for the LIFETIME benefits.
Again, everything changes - but LIFETIME means lifetime. Note now, United states "Lifetime" may not mean that. It's disgusting and misleading. Besides the MM program has become so watered down that being a MM means nothing.
UG
The chances of success on the merits is low. Lower still with the lawyers currently litigating the case on behalf of the plaintiff.
But then again, the plaintiff's are not trying to get to verdict nor will the issue ever go before a jury. All the plaintiff's want to do is survive this motion to dismiss. Then UA will file an answer and the plaintiff's will file a motion for class certification.
Looking the requirements for class certification, the motion should be granted. It's at that point where class actions settle. If UA is feeling its oats, then they may elect to go to discovery and try for a quick victory on a motion for summary judgment which they have about 80%-90% chance of winning. However, if they lose the motion for SJ, that would only increase the settlement to plaintiffs.
But then again, the plaintiff's are not trying to get to verdict nor will the issue ever go before a jury. All the plaintiff's want to do is survive this motion to dismiss. Then UA will file an answer and the plaintiff's will file a motion for class certification.
Looking the requirements for class certification, the motion should be granted. It's at that point where class actions settle. If UA is feeling its oats, then they may elect to go to discovery and try for a quick victory on a motion for summary judgment which they have about 80%-90% chance of winning. However, if they lose the motion for SJ, that would only increase the settlement to plaintiffs.
Originally Posted by Bear96
Speaking of lawyers, do any of the actual litigators here who have opined on this issue in this thread think this lawsuit has any realistic chance of success? (Serious question; I really don't know and this thread is now way too long to go back and review for that.)
Last edited by iluv2fly; Jan 23, 2013 at 10:41 pm Reason: merge
Jan 23, 2013, 10:09 pm
#817
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: ORD
Programs: AA EXP,2MM, DL Gold,Starwood PLT
Posts: 3,876
This is where one can vote with their dollar, and you did. Now, let's say WN promised you that after 300 WN segments, you would be LIFETIME segments on their program...or whatever. It cost you a couple hundred grand, a decade or so and then when you hit this milestone, two years later they change it. You would chalk it up to changes in the program? I don't believe you if you said yes.
I don't like to assume, but 18K a month domestic must be transcon, I would have status matched with AA and left UA in the dust.
What I care about is the principle. Every MP member, pre-merger (PM), was told year after year after year, for decades, we would receive "x, y & z" benefits, if we sat our rear-ends in a United airplane, regardless of where, front or back, for 1,000,000 miles. And when the AA, DL, and CO were applying class of service bonus miles, credit card purchases, partner airline miles towards MMiler status, United would ADD more benefits creating the gold standard of MMiler status.
I passed BIS 1MM and by 2014 I would have hit the 2MM mark BIS. With the merger I became a 2MM.
What United did - to all it's PM MP members is a disgrace. There were people who were at 750K or 950K or 500K flying to get MMiler status for the LIFETIME benefits.
Again, everything changes - but LIFETIME means lifetime. Note now, United states "Lifetime" may not mean that. It's disgusting and misleading. Besides the MM program has become so watered down that being a MM means nothing.
UG
I don't like to assume, but 18K a month domestic must be transcon, I would have status matched with AA and left UA in the dust.
What I care about is the principle. Every MP member, pre-merger (PM), was told year after year after year, for decades, we would receive "x, y & z" benefits, if we sat our rear-ends in a United airplane, regardless of where, front or back, for 1,000,000 miles. And when the AA, DL, and CO were applying class of service bonus miles, credit card purchases, partner airline miles towards MMiler status, United would ADD more benefits creating the gold standard of MMiler status.
I passed BIS 1MM and by 2014 I would have hit the 2MM mark BIS. With the merger I became a 2MM.
What United did - to all it's PM MP members is a disgrace. There were people who were at 750K or 950K or 500K flying to get MMiler status for the LIFETIME benefits.
Again, everything changes - but LIFETIME means lifetime. Note now, United states "Lifetime" may not mean that. It's disgusting and misleading. Besides the MM program has become so watered down that being a MM means nothing.
UG
Jan 23, 2013, 10:34 pm
#818
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Ewa Beach, Hawaii
Posts: 10,909
Would people complain if a "change" to the MM "promises" increased a benefit? It would still be a "change". I bet not one person would be complaining that they can't "change" the program, they spent $100K's of dollars and a million miles on your planes and now getting different benefits than you promised. Don't think SWU's existed when the MM program was started. Yet they added getting 3 when you passed the mark. Don't think CR1's existed when the MM program was started, yet they added getting 2 a year. These were "changes" to the program yet I would almost bet not one of the people complaining now complained when those "changes" were made.
No, I am not happy with the reductions but you need to be careful how you are applying the complaints about they can't change the promises made. They have shown they can change the program whenever they want. People just complain when the change is negative but don't complain when the change is positive.
No, I am not happy with the reductions but you need to be careful how you are applying the complaints about they can't change the promises made. They have shown they can change the program whenever they want. People just complain when the change is negative but don't complain when the change is positive.
Jan 23, 2013, 11:04 pm
#819
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: SEA/YVR/BLI
Programs: UA "Lifetime" Gold, AS MVPG100K, OW Emerald, HH Lifetime Diamond, IC Plat, Marriott Gold, Hertz Gold
Posts: 9,490
It's perhaps one of the sadder signs of the times that somebody referencing principles - basically treating others as one would want to be treated by others - is described as "naive." I've never bought the cynical idea that "business ethics" is necessarily an oxymoron.
There was indeed. I remember the UA bankruptcy well. Mrs. Fredd and I continued to fly UA, taking the risk they would remain in business and that we could enjoy the miles and benefits we earned from MP. They did but now they've reneged on the lifetime benefits they promised us in return for reaching Million Mile Flyer status.
Actually something closer to the opposite has been the case over a number of decades until the past few years. That's not relevant to this discussion though IMO.
That remains to be determined within the legal context.
UA and MP are still in business. While they remain in business, I want the promised lifetime benefits for reaching Million Mile status.
Some have thought that about promised "lifetime" oil changes too.
Let's at least wait until a judge makes a decision.
Why would, for example, the CO IE folks complain about the way UA has treated them? To put it another way, if I lend you $100 and you pay me back only $50 I'll complain. If you decide to pay me back $150 I suppose I'd be rather silly to complain.
There was some time there for either CO or UA in various periods you didn't even know they would exist in the future.
FFP have always changed from year to year and it's been generally been less benefits.
They have that right.
Lifetime means more the airlines lifetime not yours.
Some have thought that about promised "lifetime" oil changes too.
Let's at least wait until a judge makes a decision.
People just complain when the change is negative but don't complain when the change is positive.
Jan 23, 2013, 11:07 pm
#820
Moderator: Mileage Run, United Airlines; FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The City/Honolulu
Programs: UA 3MM; Hyatt Glob*****; Hilton Diamond
Posts: 14,473
Perhaps the light you shone was too bright. Welcome back any time, sbedelman. Your pellucid posts are most welcome.
Pat, many thanks for posting these links. ^ I particularly enjoyed this post.
Welcome back any time, sbedelman. Your pellucid posts are most welcome.Pat, many thanks for posting these links. ^ I particularly enjoyed this post.
Fredd I agree with your comment on post 633.
Jan 24, 2013, 1:23 am
#821
Join Date: Oct 2007
Programs: UA 1K 1MM / AA PP, Marriott Lifetime Gold
Posts: 949
Would people complain if a "change" to the MM "promises" increased a benefit? It would still be a "change". I bet not one person would be complaining that they can't "change" the program, they spent $100K's of dollars and a million miles on your planes and now getting different benefits than you promised. Don't think SWU's existed when the MM program was started. Yet they added getting 3 when you passed the mark. Don't think CR1's existed when the MM program was started, yet they added getting 2 a year. These were "changes" to the program yet I would almost bet not one of the people complaining now complained when those "changes" were made.
No, I am not happy with the reductions but you need to be careful how you are applying the complaints about they can't change the promises made. They have shown they can change the program whenever they want. People just complain when the change is negative but don't complain when the change is positive.
No, I am not happy with the reductions but you need to be careful how you are applying the complaints about they can't change the promises made. They have shown they can change the program whenever they want. People just complain when the change is negative but don't complain when the change is positive.
What an odd argument! I don't know where in contract law or precedent it exists, but I am sure delivering less than contractually agreed upon is breach of contract but sure overdelivering/providing more than expected is good customer service. Nobody will complain about more, but sure - one can and SHOULD complain, sue, whatever about underdelivering. I would agree with the 'they can change the program whenever they want' but LIFETIME does indicate pretty clearly that the benefits won't be reduced during your LIFETIME with said contract/company/program whatever. Had they not said LIFETIME and just said "once you reach 1MM you get XYZ, but we might change that at any point" - you would have a point
Jan 24, 2013, 1:35 am
#822
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Chicago USA
Programs: *A Junkie, SQ PPS, Skywards Gold, 2 Million Mile Flyer;*wood LT Plat, BA MM
Posts: 1,762
Bit of naive thinking on that issue. There was some time there for either CO or UA in various periods you didn't even know they would exist in the future. FFP have always changed from year to year and it's been generally been less benefits. They have that right. Lifetime means more the airlines lifetime not yours.
I don't know if you are doing this because you think it's funny or whatever your objective may be, and of course you are entitled to your opinion. I say this because your statements are FALSE. I also believe from your numerous posts, you were not a United Airlines Million Mile Flyer, pre-merger.
During UA's bankruptcy, I stuck it out, I had already invested into the program and I felt UA would go on. It's called taking a risk on my investment. I also felt I would be rewarded by standing by them when they needed my business.
FFP have changed year to year, BUT United's "Million Miles and More Program" was considered the best in the industry and that did not change. Even at a United "do" one of the executives mentioned it was referred to as "Million Mile Flyer" because one had to fly an actual million miles. Again, talked about ad nauseum.
To the average person, off the street, if a poll were taken, "when a company states you will receive LIFETIME benefits for doing x,y,z, what do you think that means?"
Answer: "The lifetime of the person or the lifetime of the company"
Plain and simple, there's no more than that, I don't care about the asterisks, the ten-page TERMS AND CONDITIONS, what Smisek thinks or anyone for that matter. LIFETIME means LIFETIME. And most common consumers would agree with this, it's not being naive. Actually it's United who was arrogant enough to do something so slimy and under-handed to their best customers.
Now, what a judge will decide is another question, I have no idea. I am not a lawyer, I have never stated a legal viewpoint, I am speaking as the voice of the customer.
After all, United is supposed to be in existence to serve their customer, THAT changed and now it serves the dollar and its' god Smisek.
UG
THANK YOU! A voice of reason!
Last edited by iluv2fly; Jan 24, 2013 at 6:45 am Reason: merge
Jan 24, 2013, 1:54 am
#823
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: London; Bangkok; Las Vegas
Programs: AA Exec Plat; UA MM Gold; Marriott Lifetime Titanium; Hilton Diamond
Posts: 8,745
Jan 24, 2013, 7:23 am
#824
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2000
Location: TPA for now. Hopefully LIS for retirement
Posts: 13,705
This is where one can vote with their dollar, and you did. Now, let's say WN promised you that after 300 WN segments, you would be LIFETIME segments on their program...or whatever. It cost you a couple hundred grand, a decade or so and then when you hit this milestone, two years later they change it. You would chalk it up to changes in the program? I don't believe you if you said yes.
Sure I would be a bit angry, but I am naturally skeptical of "lifetime" benefits anyway. Heck, I spent a decade or so at an employer that offered a defined benefit pension, which was then terminated. And there are a lot more legal protections addressing pensions then there are addressing airline marketing programs.
Jan 24, 2013, 9:00 am
#825
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: SEA/YVR/BLI
Programs: UA "Lifetime" Gold, AS MVPG100K, OW Emerald, HH Lifetime Diamond, IC Plat, Marriott Gold, Hertz Gold
Posts: 9,490
I now infer a possible reason for the cynicism (bitterness?) underlying your comments, e.g. "Why should you people whine about losing a few benefits when others have lost much more?" Please forgive me if that's not an accurate description.
There's a lot of injustice in this world, even in our "advanced societies," and I have great sympathy for those who have lost "promised" pensions through no fault of their own. Yes, even for those elderly FAs with bad attitudes I've encountered on high-seniority international routes. There but for the grace of God...
Still, that won't stop me from complaining about what IMHO is UA's unprincipled behavior in this matter simply because it has less impact on me than an employee's vanished pension. YMMV.
And whether UA successfully defends itself in court, despite its "lifetime" promises, including some that a UA executive haplessly described as "regrettable and confusing," will not change my opinion of the morality of its actions.