Apr 23, 2013, 6:22 pm
Last edit by: WineCountryUA
Presented as Q&A format (Originally posted by Alex_B)
Q: What is a stopover?
A: A stopover on an international itinerary is any break in your air travel for more than 24 hours except at the destination.
Q: What is an open-jaw?
A: An open-jaw is where you travel by your own means (either land, sea or a separate air ticket) between two points in a journey.
Q: How many stopovers am I allowed on a roundtrip award?
A: One stopover, in addition to the destination, is permitted (an unlimited number of stops less than 24hours is allowable).
Q: How many open-jaws are allowed on a roundtrip award?
A: Two open-jaws are permitted. These must be at the stopover, destination or origin.
Q: Can I have a stopover or open-jaw on a one-way award?
A: No
Q: Can I have a open-jaw at both the stopover and destination?
A: Yes, plenty of posters have reported success in booking this
Q: Can I transit my destination multiple times (e.g. fly to JNB, fly to CPT and then return home via JNB)?
A: Yes, plenty of posters have reported success in booking this. You can only stop in your destination for > 24 hours once though.
Q: Can I cross both oceans?
A: Yes. The rule that prohibited crossing both oceans appears to have been removed from both MP and *A award rules. There are many many successful examples of people booking these itineraries.
Q: Is EWR-PVG transatlantic or transpacific?
A: US-East Asia/South East Asia is always transpacific no matter what geography might suggest.
Q: Do I pay more for a stopover or open-jaw?
A: Typically no additional mileage is required but additional taxes or fees are often payable (especially in UK with high Air Passenger Duty). Extra mileage will often be required if an open-jaw or stopover adds a higher cost region into the itinerary. Also awards wholly within CONUS, Canada and Alaska (formerly known as Series 0 awards) require additional mileage (10K miles) for a stopover of >4 hrs.
Q: What's this about a free one-way I can get on awards?
A: The concept of free one-ways is a misnomer and often confuses people, it is better to consider it a stopover in the city of origin. If you have a simple roundtrip award without a stopover, you can often create a stopover and open-jaw at your origin on the return leg to add an addition flight. E.g. I wish to book EWR-LHR (destination)-EWR which is a roundtrip US-Europe award. I could also book this as EWR-LHR (destination)-EWR (stopover)-SFO for the same mileage (and a few dollars of extra tax). The EWR segment would need to be within 330 days of booking and would be subject to the usual change fees.
Other notes:
Seeing your fare construction on an already booked award ticket:
In order to see your award fare construction to see where your stopovers and destination are, follow these steps.
Go to http://www.saudiairlines.com/
Then hit "Manage My Bookings" and select "E-Ticket"
Enter your UA ticket number (hint: 016 will go in the first box, and then everything else in the second box). Then your last name and hit "Retrieve My Booking". On the next page you'll see a line like this under "Fare Calculation":
CHI LH X/FRA LH ROM0.00CSM/YB52 /- FLR LH X/FRA LH X/DUS LH CHI UA SEA
This example is:
ORD-FRA-FCO
Open Jaw at Destination
FLR-FRA-DUS-ORD
Stopover at origin
ORD-SEA
Q: What is a stopover?
A: A stopover on an international itinerary is any break in your air travel for more than 24 hours except at the destination.
Q: What is an open-jaw?
A: An open-jaw is where you travel by your own means (either land, sea or a separate air ticket) between two points in a journey.
Q: How many stopovers am I allowed on a roundtrip award?
A: One stopover, in addition to the destination, is permitted (an unlimited number of stops less than 24hours is allowable).
Q: How many open-jaws are allowed on a roundtrip award?
A: Two open-jaws are permitted. These must be at the stopover, destination or origin.
Q: Can I have a stopover or open-jaw on a one-way award?
A: No
Q: Can I have a open-jaw at both the stopover and destination?
A: Yes, plenty of posters have reported success in booking this
Q: Can I transit my destination multiple times (e.g. fly to JNB, fly to CPT and then return home via JNB)?
A: Yes, plenty of posters have reported success in booking this. You can only stop in your destination for > 24 hours once though.
Q: Can I cross both oceans?
A: Yes. The rule that prohibited crossing both oceans appears to have been removed from both MP and *A award rules. There are many many successful examples of people booking these itineraries.
Q: Is EWR-PVG transatlantic or transpacific?
A: US-East Asia/South East Asia is always transpacific no matter what geography might suggest.
Q: Do I pay more for a stopover or open-jaw?
A: Typically no additional mileage is required but additional taxes or fees are often payable (especially in UK with high Air Passenger Duty). Extra mileage will often be required if an open-jaw or stopover adds a higher cost region into the itinerary. Also awards wholly within CONUS, Canada and Alaska (formerly known as Series 0 awards) require additional mileage (10K miles) for a stopover of >4 hrs.
Q: What's this about a free one-way I can get on awards?
A: The concept of free one-ways is a misnomer and often confuses people, it is better to consider it a stopover in the city of origin. If you have a simple roundtrip award without a stopover, you can often create a stopover and open-jaw at your origin on the return leg to add an addition flight. E.g. I wish to book EWR-LHR (destination)-EWR which is a roundtrip US-Europe award. I could also book this as EWR-LHR (destination)-EWR (stopover)-SFO for the same mileage (and a few dollars of extra tax). The EWR segment would need to be within 330 days of booking and would be subject to the usual change fees.
Other notes:
- The open-jaw portion must be smaller (in miles) than any other leg. -While technically true for revenue fare construction this is not strictly enforced on awards.
- For awards between CONUS/Canada/Alaska and South Asia award regions the maximum number of segments is 5 segments each way on a round-trip and 4 segments on a one-way. (Note that many FTers report recently being read a memo that imposes an eight segment maximum on a roundtrip (4 each way). It is unclear whether this eight-segment maximum is limited to South Asia routings through Europe or North Asia, or has broader application.)
- Stopovers and open-jaws are NOT additive. You do not get extra stops included in your itinerary simply by making an open-jaw out of it.
Seeing your fare construction on an already booked award ticket:
In order to see your award fare construction to see where your stopovers and destination are, follow these steps.
Go to http://www.saudiairlines.com/
Then hit "Manage My Bookings" and select "E-Ticket"
Enter your UA ticket number (hint: 016 will go in the first box, and then everything else in the second box). Then your last name and hit "Retrieve My Booking". On the next page you'll see a line like this under "Fare Calculation":
CHI LH X/FRA LH ROM0.00CSM/YB52 /- FLR LH X/FRA LH X/DUS LH CHI UA SEA
This example is:
ORD-FRA-FCO
Open Jaw at Destination
FLR-FRA-DUS-ORD
Stopover at origin
ORD-SEA
Rules for Open Jaw & Stopover Award Flights (Consolidated)
Oct 19, 2013, 11:15 pm
#2132
Join Date: Sep 2009
Programs: UA GS>1K>Nothing; DL DM 2MM; AS 75K>Nothing>MVP
Posts: 9,341
The rule on RT is 1SO, 2OJ, and 5 segments each way.
Book what you can on the web and then call to change. If the agent sounds hesitant, PHUACA.
The rules are clear.
Book what you can on the web and then call to change. If the agent sounds hesitant, PHUACA.
The rules are clear.
Oct 20, 2013, 3:24 am
#2133
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: body: A stone's throw from SFO, mind: SE Asia
Programs: Some of this 'n some of that
Posts: 17,263
Having gone through a few itins recently I've been amazed at how many interpretations can be had from what seems to be a simply worded memo.
Oct 20, 2013, 10:34 am
#2134
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: SAN
Posts: 1,396
I ask because I'm gearing up for:
SAN-ORD-FRA-LHR (stop)
LHR-ZUR-JNB-CPT (Dest)
CPT-JNB-ZUR-IAD-SAN
I'm still in the "research" phase, but will start looking seriously in the next few days - so obviously gateways may change based on what opens up.
My question is, would this itinerary be viewed as 6 segments SAN-CPT and 4 segments on the return, thus running afoul of the new "rule"?
Oct 20, 2013, 10:36 am
#2135
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 207
Help, please! I have been able to piece together this itinerary:
LAX-YYZ-MUC (stop)
VIE-NCE (open jaw and destination?)
CDG-LHR-LAX (open jaw)
The CDG-LAX has more segments - there are 10 total for all flights.
Getting the error screen on UA so would like to know it's a legal routing prior to calling, just so I know where I stand. For coach, I'm hoping to do this with 60k miles.
LAX-YYZ-MUC (stop)
VIE-NCE (open jaw and destination?)
CDG-LHR-LAX (open jaw)
The CDG-LAX has more segments - there are 10 total for all flights.
Getting the error screen on UA so would like to know it's a legal routing prior to calling, just so I know where I stand. For coach, I'm hoping to do this with 60k miles.
I'm hesitant to book parts of this in the hopes to change later, not wanting to get stuck with an unwanted itinerary.
Oct 20, 2013, 11:00 am
#2136
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: SAN
Posts: 1,396
When I called last night, the overseas call center put me on hold for a lengthy time to discuss with the team office (or something of that nature). First she insisted that only one open jaw was allowed (where do I find these rules?). I was fairly sure this was not the case, so back on hold I went. Then she said it wasn't bookable because they were looking at it as LAX-MUC, 5,900 miles, then VIE-LAX at 6,000 miles. I didn't understand this reasoning.
I'm hesitant to book parts of this in the hopes to change later, not wanting to get stuck with an unwanted itinerary.
I'm hesitant to book parts of this in the hopes to change later, not wanting to get stuck with an unwanted itinerary.
Oct 20, 2013, 9:07 pm
#2137
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 350
Are we now assuming that the 5 segment rule applies to all itineraries?
I ask because I'm gearing up for:
SAN-ORD-FRA-LHR (stop)
LHR-ZUR-JNB-CPT (Dest)
CPT-JNB-ZUR-IAD-SAN
I'm still in the "research" phase, but will start looking seriously in the next few days - so obviously gateways may change based on what opens up.
My question is, would this itinerary be viewed as 6 segments SAN-CPT and 4 segments on the return, thus running afoul of the new "rule"?
I ask because I'm gearing up for:
SAN-ORD-FRA-LHR (stop)
LHR-ZUR-JNB-CPT (Dest)
CPT-JNB-ZUR-IAD-SAN
I'm still in the "research" phase, but will start looking seriously in the next few days - so obviously gateways may change based on what opens up.
My question is, would this itinerary be viewed as 6 segments SAN-CPT and 4 segments on the return, thus running afoul of the new "rule"?
Oct 21, 2013, 9:07 am
#2138
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: London, UK
Programs: BA Gold, UA Nobody, Hilton Gold
Posts: 2,372
I'm currently on my third call to book my award itinerary:
sfo-lis (ewr connection)
lis-cdg (zur connection)
zur-pmo (muc connection)
fco-sfo (ist & ord connections)
The first agent tried to tell me that I had two stopovers even after we went though it segment by segment and she agreed that I had one stopover and two open jaws. I thought it might be the fact that we were flying through zur from lis-cdg and then booking a separate flight from zur to pmo, so I offered to change the lis-cdg so it routed through fra but she was very firm that no matter how I booked it, there were two stopovers. Huh?
sfo-lis (ewr connection)
lis-cdg (zur connection)
zur-pmo (muc connection)
fco-sfo (ist & ord connections)
The first agent tried to tell me that I had two stopovers even after we went though it segment by segment and she agreed that I had one stopover and two open jaws. I thought it might be the fact that we were flying through zur from lis-cdg and then booking a separate flight from zur to pmo, so I offered to change the lis-cdg so it routed through fra but she was very firm that no matter how I booked it, there were two stopovers. Huh?
Oct 21, 2013, 9:29 am
#2139
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 37
"Q: What is a stopover?
A: A stopover on an international itinerary is any break in your air travel for more than 24 hours except at the destination."
Ran into a situation where my stopover was exactly 24 hours. According to the above quote, the following schedule should therefore be legal as it's not more than 24 hours. Am I correct or has there been a change of rule?
AKL 2315 - PVG 0730 (+1)
-24:00 layover-
PVG 0730 - BKK 1105
A: A stopover on an international itinerary is any break in your air travel for more than 24 hours except at the destination."
Ran into a situation where my stopover was exactly 24 hours. According to the above quote, the following schedule should therefore be legal as it's not more than 24 hours. Am I correct or has there been a change of rule?
AKL 2315 - PVG 0730 (+1)
-24:00 layover-
PVG 0730 - BKK 1105
Oct 21, 2013, 2:30 pm
#2140
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 117
Help booking a trip with a stop.
I am in the early planning stages of booking an award ticket for next Fall (2014).
I will be going from NorthEast (Philadelphia/Newark/JFK) to Europe. I am toying with the idea of trying to hit two different stops. Glasgow & Amsterdam. What is my best option to try and fly from US to one of those cities stay for a few nights then fly to other city then fly home? Trying to do it all on one redemption if possible. I have lots of USAIR & United miles. Thanks
I will be going from NorthEast (Philadelphia/Newark/JFK) to Europe. I am toying with the idea of trying to hit two different stops. Glasgow & Amsterdam. What is my best option to try and fly from US to one of those cities stay for a few nights then fly to other city then fly home? Trying to do it all on one redemption if possible. I have lots of USAIR & United miles. Thanks
Oct 22, 2013, 12:24 pm
#2141
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: SAN
Posts: 1,396
Curious on your thoughts on the following itinerary:
SAN-ORD-LHR (STOP)
LHR-FRA-JNB-CPT (Dest)
CPT-JNB-BKK-ICN-LAX[-PHX-SAN]
1.) What is the current status of the "two oceans" rule. I am considering this routing because we want a stopover in Europe, but availability is much better through asia on the return.
2.) The LAX-SAN segment is not available, so my options appear to be:
a) terminate at LAX (is this legal?) I would then wait for SAN-LAX to open up, or use other points to book that segment.
b.) book LAX-PHX-SAN as indicated above. Is this legal? It appears to take me to 6 segments.
3.) Any other considerations?
Thanks in advance for everyone's continued help!
OK so I am on hold right now trying to get this ticketed, waiting for a supervisor. The agent is sure that the routing is not legal, but cannot give me any information as to why. He appears to think that it violates MPM, and he also muttered something about "round trip around the globe" but did not follow up on that.
He also told me rate desk is only for paid tickets and if his computer won't price it is not possible to have it priced.
I jumped on this routing mainly because ICN-LAX is in First and JNB-BKK is business, and finding availability from JNB to the states in first or business is nearly impossible, so we'll see what happens.
SAN-ORD-LHR (STOP)
LHR-FRA-JNB-CPT (Dest)
CPT-JNB-BKK-ICN-LAX[-PHX-SAN]
1.) What is the current status of the "two oceans" rule. I am considering this routing because we want a stopover in Europe, but availability is much better through asia on the return.
2.) The LAX-SAN segment is not available, so my options appear to be:
a) terminate at LAX (is this legal?) I would then wait for SAN-LAX to open up, or use other points to book that segment.
b.) book LAX-PHX-SAN as indicated above. Is this legal? It appears to take me to 6 segments.
3.) Any other considerations?
Thanks in advance for everyone's continued help!
Curious on your thoughts on the following itinerary:
SAN-ORD-LHR (STOP)
LHR-FRA-JNB-CPT (Dest)
CPT-JNB-BKK-ICN-LAX[-PHX-SAN]
1.) What is the current status of the "two oceans" rule. I am considering this routing because we want a stopover in Europe, but availability is much better through asia on the return.
2.) The LAX-SAN segment is not available, so my options appear to be:
a) terminate at LAX (is this legal?) I would then wait for SAN-LAX to open up, or use other points to book that segment.
b.) book LAX-PHX-SAN as indicated above. Is this legal? It appears to take me to 6 segments.
3.) Any other considerations?
Thanks in advance for everyone's continued help!
SAN-ORD-LHR (STOP)
LHR-FRA-JNB-CPT (Dest)
CPT-JNB-BKK-ICN-LAX[-PHX-SAN]
1.) What is the current status of the "two oceans" rule. I am considering this routing because we want a stopover in Europe, but availability is much better through asia on the return.
2.) The LAX-SAN segment is not available, so my options appear to be:
a) terminate at LAX (is this legal?) I would then wait for SAN-LAX to open up, or use other points to book that segment.
b.) book LAX-PHX-SAN as indicated above. Is this legal? It appears to take me to 6 segments.
3.) Any other considerations?
Thanks in advance for everyone's continued help!
He also told me rate desk is only for paid tickets and if his computer won't price it is not possible to have it priced.
I jumped on this routing mainly because ICN-LAX is in First and JNB-BKK is business, and finding availability from JNB to the states in first or business is nearly impossible, so we'll see what happens.
Last edited by iluv2fly; Oct 22, 2013 at 2:49 pm Reason: merge
Oct 22, 2013, 2:01 pm
#2142
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: SFO
Programs: UA Plat
Posts: 88
Extra miles for 11 hour overnight connection?
I just booked an award ticket for next summer:
ATH-IST
IST-JFK
overnight in JFK for less than 11 hours
JFK-SFO (8 AM flight)
All in Business (I) on Turkish and UA
The United agent says the computer prices this trip out at 67,500 per person. I told the agent it should be 50,000 miles per person because it's an international itinerary and because the connection in JFK is less than 24 hours. The agent, who didn't seem the most skilled, said that because of the overnight connection and because I didn't select the 6 AM flight from JFK to SFO, the cost is 67,500 miles. (Note: there was no award availability on the 6 AM flight).
My question for the Flyertalk experts: am I correct in believing the journey should be just 50,000 miles per person? Or is there a new rule about connection time on international award tickets? I don't know if this is relevant, but in my receipt, it defines the award used as "WF2".
If I am correct, I'll try calling again with the hope of getting an agent more skilled at award ticket booking.
I appreciate any and all help!
ATH-IST
IST-JFK
overnight in JFK for less than 11 hours
JFK-SFO (8 AM flight)
All in Business (I) on Turkish and UA
The United agent says the computer prices this trip out at 67,500 per person. I told the agent it should be 50,000 miles per person because it's an international itinerary and because the connection in JFK is less than 24 hours. The agent, who didn't seem the most skilled, said that because of the overnight connection and because I didn't select the 6 AM flight from JFK to SFO, the cost is 67,500 miles. (Note: there was no award availability on the 6 AM flight).
My question for the Flyertalk experts: am I correct in believing the journey should be just 50,000 miles per person? Or is there a new rule about connection time on international award tickets? I don't know if this is relevant, but in my receipt, it defines the award used as "WF2".
If I am correct, I'll try calling again with the hope of getting an agent more skilled at award ticket booking.
I appreciate any and all help!
Last edited by car94102; Oct 22, 2013 at 2:07 pm
Oct 22, 2013, 2:10 pm
#2143
Suspended
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 24,153
I just booked an award ticket for next summer:
ATH-IST
IST-JFK
overnight in JFK for less than 11 hours
JFK-SFO (8 AM flight)
All in Business (I) on Turkish and UA
The United agent says the computer prices this trip out at 67,500 per person. I told the agent it should be 50,000 miles per person because it's an international itinerary and because the connection in JFK is less than 24 hours. The agent, who didn't seem the most skilled, said that because of the overnight connection and because I didn't select the 6 AM flight from JFK to SFO, the cost is 67,500 miles. (Note: there was no award availability on the 6 AM flight)..
My question for the Flyertalk experts: am I correct in believing the journey should be just 50,000 miles per person? Or is there a new rule about connection time on international award tickets? .If I am correct, I'll try calling again with the hope of getting an agent more skilled at award ticket booking..
ATH-IST
IST-JFK
overnight in JFK for less than 11 hours
JFK-SFO (8 AM flight)
All in Business (I) on Turkish and UA
The United agent says the computer prices this trip out at 67,500 per person. I told the agent it should be 50,000 miles per person because it's an international itinerary and because the connection in JFK is less than 24 hours. The agent, who didn't seem the most skilled, said that because of the overnight connection and because I didn't select the 6 AM flight from JFK to SFO, the cost is 67,500 miles. (Note: there was no award availability on the 6 AM flight)..
My question for the Flyertalk experts: am I correct in believing the journey should be just 50,000 miles per person? Or is there a new rule about connection time on international award tickets? .If I am correct, I'll try calling again with the hope of getting an agent more skilled at award ticket booking..
Last edited by craz; Oct 22, 2013 at 2:16 pm
Oct 22, 2013, 2:12 pm
#2144
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: SFO
Programs: UA Plat
Posts: 88
If I made this part of a round trip itinerary, would the extra mileage requirement go away?