Apr 23, 2013, 6:22 pm
Last edit by: WineCountryUA
Presented as Q&A format (Originally posted by Alex_B)
Q: What is a stopover?
A: A stopover on an international itinerary is any break in your air travel for more than 24 hours except at the destination.
Q: What is an open-jaw?
A: An open-jaw is where you travel by your own means (either land, sea or a separate air ticket) between two points in a journey.
Q: How many stopovers am I allowed on a roundtrip award?
A: One stopover, in addition to the destination, is permitted (an unlimited number of stops less than 24hours is allowable).
Q: How many open-jaws are allowed on a roundtrip award?
A: Two open-jaws are permitted. These must be at the stopover, destination or origin.
Q: Can I have a stopover or open-jaw on a one-way award?
A: No
Q: Can I have a open-jaw at both the stopover and destination?
A: Yes, plenty of posters have reported success in booking this
Q: Can I transit my destination multiple times (e.g. fly to JNB, fly to CPT and then return home via JNB)?
A: Yes, plenty of posters have reported success in booking this. You can only stop in your destination for > 24 hours once though.
Q: Can I cross both oceans?
A: Yes. The rule that prohibited crossing both oceans appears to have been removed from both MP and *A award rules. There are many many successful examples of people booking these itineraries.
Q: Is EWR-PVG transatlantic or transpacific?
A: US-East Asia/South East Asia is always transpacific no matter what geography might suggest.
Q: Do I pay more for a stopover or open-jaw?
A: Typically no additional mileage is required but additional taxes or fees are often payable (especially in UK with high Air Passenger Duty). Extra mileage will often be required if an open-jaw or stopover adds a higher cost region into the itinerary. Also awards wholly within CONUS, Canada and Alaska (formerly known as Series 0 awards) require additional mileage (10K miles) for a stopover of >4 hrs.
Q: What's this about a free one-way I can get on awards?
A: The concept of free one-ways is a misnomer and often confuses people, it is better to consider it a stopover in the city of origin. If you have a simple roundtrip award without a stopover, you can often create a stopover and open-jaw at your origin on the return leg to add an addition flight. E.g. I wish to book EWR-LHR (destination)-EWR which is a roundtrip US-Europe award. I could also book this as EWR-LHR (destination)-EWR (stopover)-SFO for the same mileage (and a few dollars of extra tax). The EWR segment would need to be within 330 days of booking and would be subject to the usual change fees.
Other notes:
Seeing your fare construction on an already booked award ticket:
In order to see your award fare construction to see where your stopovers and destination are, follow these steps.
Go to http://www.saudiairlines.com/
Then hit "Manage My Bookings" and select "E-Ticket"
Enter your UA ticket number (hint: 016 will go in the first box, and then everything else in the second box). Then your last name and hit "Retrieve My Booking". On the next page you'll see a line like this under "Fare Calculation":
CHI LH X/FRA LH ROM0.00CSM/YB52 /- FLR LH X/FRA LH X/DUS LH CHI UA SEA
This example is:
ORD-FRA-FCO
Open Jaw at Destination
FLR-FRA-DUS-ORD
Stopover at origin
ORD-SEA
Q: What is a stopover?
A: A stopover on an international itinerary is any break in your air travel for more than 24 hours except at the destination.
Q: What is an open-jaw?
A: An open-jaw is where you travel by your own means (either land, sea or a separate air ticket) between two points in a journey.
Q: How many stopovers am I allowed on a roundtrip award?
A: One stopover, in addition to the destination, is permitted (an unlimited number of stops less than 24hours is allowable).
Q: How many open-jaws are allowed on a roundtrip award?
A: Two open-jaws are permitted. These must be at the stopover, destination or origin.
Q: Can I have a stopover or open-jaw on a one-way award?
A: No
Q: Can I have a open-jaw at both the stopover and destination?
A: Yes, plenty of posters have reported success in booking this
Q: Can I transit my destination multiple times (e.g. fly to JNB, fly to CPT and then return home via JNB)?
A: Yes, plenty of posters have reported success in booking this. You can only stop in your destination for > 24 hours once though.
Q: Can I cross both oceans?
A: Yes. The rule that prohibited crossing both oceans appears to have been removed from both MP and *A award rules. There are many many successful examples of people booking these itineraries.
Q: Is EWR-PVG transatlantic or transpacific?
A: US-East Asia/South East Asia is always transpacific no matter what geography might suggest.
Q: Do I pay more for a stopover or open-jaw?
A: Typically no additional mileage is required but additional taxes or fees are often payable (especially in UK with high Air Passenger Duty). Extra mileage will often be required if an open-jaw or stopover adds a higher cost region into the itinerary. Also awards wholly within CONUS, Canada and Alaska (formerly known as Series 0 awards) require additional mileage (10K miles) for a stopover of >4 hrs.
Q: What's this about a free one-way I can get on awards?
A: The concept of free one-ways is a misnomer and often confuses people, it is better to consider it a stopover in the city of origin. If you have a simple roundtrip award without a stopover, you can often create a stopover and open-jaw at your origin on the return leg to add an addition flight. E.g. I wish to book EWR-LHR (destination)-EWR which is a roundtrip US-Europe award. I could also book this as EWR-LHR (destination)-EWR (stopover)-SFO for the same mileage (and a few dollars of extra tax). The EWR segment would need to be within 330 days of booking and would be subject to the usual change fees.
Other notes:
- The open-jaw portion must be smaller (in miles) than any other leg. -While technically true for revenue fare construction this is not strictly enforced on awards.
- For awards between CONUS/Canada/Alaska and South Asia award regions the maximum number of segments is 5 segments each way on a round-trip and 4 segments on a one-way. (Note that many FTers report recently being read a memo that imposes an eight segment maximum on a roundtrip (4 each way). It is unclear whether this eight-segment maximum is limited to South Asia routings through Europe or North Asia, or has broader application.)
- Stopovers and open-jaws are NOT additive. You do not get extra stops included in your itinerary simply by making an open-jaw out of it.
Seeing your fare construction on an already booked award ticket:
In order to see your award fare construction to see where your stopovers and destination are, follow these steps.
Go to http://www.saudiairlines.com/
Then hit "Manage My Bookings" and select "E-Ticket"
Enter your UA ticket number (hint: 016 will go in the first box, and then everything else in the second box). Then your last name and hit "Retrieve My Booking". On the next page you'll see a line like this under "Fare Calculation":
CHI LH X/FRA LH ROM0.00CSM/YB52 /- FLR LH X/FRA LH X/DUS LH CHI UA SEA
This example is:
ORD-FRA-FCO
Open Jaw at Destination
FLR-FRA-DUS-ORD
Stopover at origin
ORD-SEA
Rules for Open Jaw & Stopover Award Flights (Consolidated)
Dec 6, 2013, 10:03 pm
#2461
Join Date: Oct 2004
Programs: DL Gold
Posts: 880
EWR-YYZ-LHR (destination) (open-jaw)
BRU-EDI (stopover) (open-jaw)
MAN-ARN-EWR
This should be allowed, no? I have 1 stopover and 2 open jaws. I have the outbound and return held, and am trying to add the BRU-EDI leg. The computer is telling them it's not allowed. Twice now I've had trouble getting over the "open-jaw at the stopover" hump. HUCA?
ETA: It could be also thought of as EWR-YYZ-LHR (SO) (OJ) BRU-EDI (Dest) // (OJ) MAN-ARN-EWR.
BRU-EDI (stopover) (open-jaw)
MAN-ARN-EWR
This should be allowed, no? I have 1 stopover and 2 open jaws. I have the outbound and return held, and am trying to add the BRU-EDI leg. The computer is telling them it's not allowed. Twice now I've had trouble getting over the "open-jaw at the stopover" hump. HUCA?
ETA: It could be also thought of as EWR-YYZ-LHR (SO) (OJ) BRU-EDI (Dest) // (OJ) MAN-ARN-EWR.
Last edited by hotelmotel; Dec 6, 2013 at 10:44 pm
Dec 6, 2013, 10:12 pm
#2462
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: So Cal
Programs: UA Gold/0.744MM, WN AL, Hyatt Diamond, MR Scum, Hertz PC, National Exec, Avis PC
Posts: 5,561
Taking out the OJ does not help.
Not only that, when I check each city pairs all have availability. When the one and only selection screen even comes up with a multi-city search, the city pair availability is completely gone!
There is no reason why one can see MIA-IAH-PEK being offered as available and almost the whole month is green but when search MIA-PEK-MIA, almost all the green boxes are gone.
It seems now worse than DL's engine. Horror! With DL I could still put together almost the whole itinerary based on availability of city pairs, and only error out at the last step of Purchase.. Call them and the rep could see what has been put together and s/he was able to "rescue" it and then I could purchase it online. UA site now could not even put a basic round trip together as I tried MIA-PEK-MIA, and all the availability seen as one-way, are gone when a r/t is searched. That cannot even be explained by the bogus Married Segment thing. (One-way is divorced, when R/T is married, right?)
I am thinking to put one-way bookings in place and then call UA to have them piece the bookings together. Someone has posted doing it this way somewhere either in this thread or other smaller threads.
Not only that, when I check each city pairs all have availability. When the one and only selection screen even comes up with a multi-city search, the city pair availability is completely gone!
There is no reason why one can see MIA-IAH-PEK being offered as available and almost the whole month is green but when search MIA-PEK-MIA, almost all the green boxes are gone.
It seems now worse than DL's engine. Horror! With DL I could still put together almost the whole itinerary based on availability of city pairs, and only error out at the last step of Purchase.. Call them and the rep could see what has been put together and s/he was able to "rescue" it and then I could purchase it online. UA site now could not even put a basic round trip together as I tried MIA-PEK-MIA, and all the availability seen as one-way, are gone when a r/t is searched. That cannot even be explained by the bogus Married Segment thing. (One-way is divorced, when R/T is married, right?)
I am thinking to put one-way bookings in place and then call UA to have them piece the bookings together. Someone has posted doing it this way somewhere either in this thread or other smaller threads.
Also note that the colored boxes on the calendar are often wrong (although they seem to be getting a little better recently).
Dec 6, 2013, 10:57 pm
#2463
Join Date: Sep 2009
Programs: UA GS>1K>Nothing; DL DM 2MM; AS 75K>Nothing>MVP
Posts: 9,341
EWR-YYZ-LHR (destination) (open-jaw)
BRU-EDI (stopover) (open-jaw)
MAN-ARN-EWR
This should be allowed, no? I have 1 stopover and 2 open jaws. I have the outbound and return held, and am trying to add the BRU-EDI leg. The computer is telling them it's not allowed. Twice now I've had trouble getting over the "open-jaw at the stopover" hump. HUCA?
ETA: It could be also thought of as EWR-YYZ-LHR (SO) (OJ) BRU-EDI (Dest) // (OJ) MAN-ARN-EWR.
BRU-EDI (stopover) (open-jaw)
MAN-ARN-EWR
This should be allowed, no? I have 1 stopover and 2 open jaws. I have the outbound and return held, and am trying to add the BRU-EDI leg. The computer is telling them it's not allowed. Twice now I've had trouble getting over the "open-jaw at the stopover" hump. HUCA?
ETA: It could be also thought of as EWR-YYZ-LHR (SO) (OJ) BRU-EDI (Dest) // (OJ) MAN-ARN-EWR.
Dec 6, 2013, 11:58 pm
#2465
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,762
The availability shown as part of one-ways, round trips, and multi-destinations are often different for no good reason. Your best bet is to book something close and then call in to change it (if you are trying to avoid a phone booking fee).
Also note that the colored boxes on the calendar are often wrong (although they seem to be getting a little better recently).
Also note that the colored boxes on the calendar are often wrong (although they seem to be getting a little better recently).
If I could put even a basic itinerary together I would. For the very few times the flight selection screen did show up, but when I selected the first flight, the whole thing errored out. Never got pass the first flight.
I have made 4 one-ways and will call tomorrow to try my luck.
Last edited by Happy; Dec 7, 2013 at 12:08 am
Dec 7, 2013, 11:08 am
#2466
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: SAN
Posts: 1,396
I know. I click every box including the white one. It seems they finally got that right, and the availability shown matches with the color of the boxes.
If I could put even a basic itinerary together I would. For the very few times the flight selection screen did show up, but when I selected the first flight, the whole thing errored out. Never got pass the first flight.
I have made 4 one-ways and will call tomorrow to try my luck.
If I could put even a basic itinerary together I would. For the very few times the flight selection screen did show up, but when I selected the first flight, the whole thing errored out. Never got pass the first flight.
I have made 4 one-ways and will call tomorrow to try my luck.
Honestly though, the agents are pretty willing to waive the phone fee if you just explain that you couldn't book online. No real need to have something already speculatively booked.
Dec 7, 2013, 2:15 pm
#2467
Join Date: Oct 2004
Programs: DL Gold
Posts: 880
Wow, getting VERY strong pushback on OJ at a SO from service directors.
"You've already called twice about this and were told it's not legal."
"Just because we've made mistakes and ticketed in the past, does not mean we have to keep doing it."
"You may have done it in the past. It's not going to happen on THIS reservation"
"Everybody at my level is going to give you the same answer"
"You've already called twice about this and were told it's not legal."
"Just because we've made mistakes and ticketed in the past, does not mean we have to keep doing it."
"You may have done it in the past. It's not going to happen on THIS reservation"
"Everybody at my level is going to give you the same answer"
Dec 7, 2013, 3:07 pm
#2468
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 75
Wow, getting VERY strong pushback on OJ at a SO from service directors.
"You've already called twice about this and were told it's not legal."
"Just because we've made mistakes and ticketed in the past, does not mean we have to keep doing it."
"You may have done it in the past. It's not going to happen on THIS reservation"
"Everybody at my level is going to give you the same answer"
"You've already called twice about this and were told it's not legal."
"Just because we've made mistakes and ticketed in the past, does not mean we have to keep doing it."
"You may have done it in the past. It's not going to happen on THIS reservation"
"Everybody at my level is going to give you the same answer"
wow that is crazy hotelmotel. Are you required to provide your MP number when you call? If so, is there someone else u know with good mileage that can call and see if what you want is possible? If so, they can grab the flight times, numbers etc and hand that off to you, and you call back with the info ready to go.
I wish I could help more but I am JUST now getting the hang of this. I was able to book a saver award tix last wednesday ( iah to hnl > hnl to akl > mel to iah) which oddly enough was initially booked in reverse I called to make the change within 24 hrs of the first booking (but after ticketing) and the agent first said I would have to refund/reserve/reticket again. But, when I started throwing flight times and numbers out there she was able to complete it all and add up the additional fees (which I prob should protest) and I was good to go.
But what is odd is that I still see plenty of saver aval. for these segments if booked as one-ways and yet, if I attempt to book the whole iten again through ua, I get errors everytime. If I do somehow lose this reservation, then the next time i book it, I will add biz first or something just to compensate for the pain of dealing with UA. lol
Last edited by lurkgoddess; Dec 7, 2013 at 3:17 pm
Dec 7, 2013, 9:29 pm
#2469
Join Date: Jul 2013
Programs: Mileage Plus, AAdvantage, Executive Club
Posts: 198
Wow, getting VERY strong pushback on OJ at a SO from service directors.
"You've already called twice about this and were told it's not legal."
"Just because we've made mistakes and ticketed in the past, does not mean we have to keep doing it."
"You may have done it in the past. It's not going to happen on THIS reservation"
"Everybody at my level is going to give you the same answer"
"You've already called twice about this and were told it's not legal."
"Just because we've made mistakes and ticketed in the past, does not mean we have to keep doing it."
"You may have done it in the past. It's not going to happen on THIS reservation"
"Everybody at my level is going to give you the same answer"
If a portion of the routing is traveled by surface transportation, one Stopover shall be deemed to have been taken for such portion
Also, if directors are mad at you, at this point you might have to throw the existing booking away and start over.
Dec 7, 2013, 9:58 pm
#2470
Join Date: Oct 2004
Programs: DL Gold
Posts: 880
Also, if directors are mad at you, at this point you might have to throw the existing booking away and start over.
I should also note I did nothing to draw such ire. I'm always calm and polite on the phone. At worst, I calmly noted that I've seen such an itin ticketed before.
Dec 7, 2013, 10:15 pm
#2471
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,762
I know there have been reports that agents can "combine" some itineraries when you book initially as multiple one-ways. However, I believe this is the exception. What is suggested here is that you book ONE of the one-ways, then call to add the other segments, explaining that you could not get them to price online.
Honestly though, the agents are pretty willing to waive the phone fee if you just explain that you couldn't book online. No real need to have something already speculatively booked.
Honestly though, the agents are pretty willing to waive the phone fee if you just explain that you couldn't book online. No real need to have something already speculatively booked.
Booked a one-way SFO-PEK then called. First call, used the 1-800 number on the error message screen and got a completely clueless agent - Indian call center accent, could not even pull up the reservation.
HUACA, using the MP number. Got a very competent, very patient agent in Philippines. She was able to add segments to the existing one-way, but got an error at pricing. She then told me may be it was due to the 2nd OJ at the destination. I asked her if she could check the rules. To her credit, she had no problem to do so, and came back read me the rules, 2 Open Jaws are allowed, so the ticket should price... Dont know what she eventually did, but she eventually was able to price it, at 130K.
I should have caught something did not book right as it should be 140K, though coming back from CDG it is booked at I on CDG-YUL, but since the turnaround is at BKK, and BKK-CDG in F should price the award at 140K.
At that time I was sidetracked on getting the domestic portion figured out when the agent was really willing to look over date range/cities for availability. So I did not catch the discrepancy in miles charged.
She was also able to add the domestic hops to SFO, on US metals connected at CLT, all in F.
At ticketing, she did need to clear with supervisor to waive the phone booking fee.
I wanted to check the itinerary before let her go but I was not able to log in, neither to my account nor to husband's account. Dont know why. neither user id or MP number would not let me log in. She said it was because she was working on my reservation ...I wasn't sure UA site would kick you out when agent was working on an existing reservation? She said she had finished now and I should be able to log in. I still couldn't. That freaked me out a bit.
So she transferred me to IT support. Before the IT folks picking up the phone which was ultimately disconnected itself, I was able to log in again - then I saw where the error was - PVG-BKK-CDG was booked in I, instead of PVG-BKKin I and BKK-CDG in O. Horror! That is why it is 130K instead of 140K.
On top of that, the O inventory is no more. Luckily pushed it forward one day, the same combo exists.
BTW, E-tickets came in 15 minutes - much much faster than in the past. I am shocked!
Immediately called back but could not get thru after 45 min listening to music while eating dinner. HUACA an hour later. Got another nice gal in Philippines. She apologized for the mixed up of booking class. I asked since now we had to rebook it anyway, could I change the PVG-BKK to HKG-BKK? Not a problem.
However she, too, got an error again when tried to price it despite before that she already told me it would be 10K extra. This time it took quite a bit of time for her to check with the support desk to re-price the tickets. Credit to her that she came back twice to comfort me that they were working on the tickets and soon it would be finalized. Finally, when she was still on the phone, the reissued tickets came thru email.
I notice TG's PNR is not on the email. All other partners PNRs are on the email. So I asked her to look up the TG PNR for me. To my surprise, there is NONE. She said TG accepted ticket number to check booking online (not true). I asked her to please show me the way on TG website. She went there and tried - and failed like I already did. TG only recognizes TG's PNR. She then called TG and found out TG's 1-800 only operates between 7am to 5pm Pacific Time... So I would call TG tomorrow to make sure everything is in order.
Itinerary is MIA-CLT-SFO (US O, < 24hrs)
SFO-PEK (CA O),
HKG-BKK-CDG (TG O),
CDG-YUL-FLL (AC I and X).
I honestly dont know which is stopover which is destination on this itinerary. The only thing certain is, it is priced as a North America to SE Asia at 140K F.
Neither agent ever said anything on the OJ between PEK and HKG. Neither agent mentioned anything about "2 ocean" or "RTW" when they encountered errors at pricing.
This is another data point that 2 OJs allowed - one in the middle of trip, one at the O/D level.
Dec 7, 2013, 10:30 pm
#2472
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: So Cal
Programs: UA Gold/0.744MM, WN AL, Hyatt Diamond, MR Scum, Hertz PC, National Exec, Avis PC
Posts: 5,561
Seeing your fare construction on an already booked award ticket:
In order to see your award fare construction to see where your stopovers and destination are, follow these steps.
Go to http://www.saudiairlines.com/
Then hit "Manage My Bookings" and select "E-Ticket"
Enter your UA ticket number (hint: 016 will go in the first box, and then everything else in the second box). Then your last name and hit "Retrieve My Booking". On the next page you'll see a line like under "Fare Calculation":
CHI LH X/FRA LH ROM0.00CSM/YB52 /- FLR LH X/FRA LH X/DUS LH CHI UA SEA
This example is:
ORD-FRA-FCO
Open Jaw at Destination
FLR-FRA-DUS-ORD
Stopover at origin
ORD-SEA
In order to see your award fare construction to see where your stopovers and destination are, follow these steps.
Go to http://www.saudiairlines.com/
Then hit "Manage My Bookings" and select "E-Ticket"
Enter your UA ticket number (hint: 016 will go in the first box, and then everything else in the second box). Then your last name and hit "Retrieve My Booking". On the next page you'll see a line like under "Fare Calculation":
CHI LH X/FRA LH ROM0.00CSM/YB52 /- FLR LH X/FRA LH X/DUS LH CHI UA SEA
This example is:
ORD-FRA-FCO
Open Jaw at Destination
FLR-FRA-DUS-ORD
Stopover at origin
ORD-SEA
Dec 7, 2013, 10:30 pm
#2473
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: SAN
Posts: 1,396
Re: the PRN - this has happened to me before where they don't show up online. I'm surprised the agent couldn't find it though. I would call again and see if someone can find it.
Dec 7, 2013, 11:32 pm
#2474
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: PHX
Programs: AS 75K; UA 1MM; Hyatt Globalist; Marriott LTP; Hilton Diamond (Aspire)
Posts: 56,455
It's well known that UA cannot give you a TG PNR. You need to call or e-mail TG. You can select your seats at the same time (by phone or e-mail). They only answer the phone and respond to e-mail Monday through Friday.
Dec 7, 2013, 11:39 pm
#2475
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,762
I sent an email to TG LAX office from the Contact Us page and hope to get a reply Monday. UA Agent did not mention TG does not work on weekends. She only said 7am to 5pm Pacific time.
My main goal is to make sure TG has seen the latest segments AND received the tickets. The latter is the most important part given CO/UA has the tendency to forget ticketing after making reservation/changes and causing the reservation being automatic canceled by partner's system. Seems to happen on OZ flights a lot.