digdug

Hello all, I have a question about passport and EU citizenship that I was hoping someone would answer.

So basically I am considering entering a 3-year PhD program in the U.K. Assuming I get in to my school(s) of choice, and get the necessary funding, I'm in, though things are far from certain.

I live in Canada, but I am also an Irish citizen, and hold an Irish passport that expires in Sept. 2011. If I get in to school, I'll be entering the U.K. a year earlier (late August-Sept. 2010).

I know that most E.U. countries will let you in on a valid passport no matter what the expiry date, but I wanted to make sure that this applies to the always-stricter United Kingdom. I also wanted to make sure that it was all right that my passport expired before my 3-year school stay was up (of course I'll renew when I'm there).

My wife will be coming with me, and will require a residency permit (6-month before we arrive, longer for when we're there), if that complicates things.

paul2

As an Irish citizen and passport holder there is no problem for you (as long as you renew your passport whilst in the UK). I'm not sure about your wifes position but it will not affect your own.

BHDBOY

You'll have no problem entering the UK or residing there. The Irish Embassy in London deals with renewals for the UK (except Northern Ireland), you will need the APS2 form.

Irish Citizens in the UK enjoy significant perks, above and beyond the EU Treaty rights, for instance by virtue of the Common Travel arrangements Irish citizens are deemed "settled" in the UK (i.e. they hold an immigration status of indefinite leave to remain, and normally treated as free from entry control) on arrival, which normally does not extend to other EU citizens until 5 years residency in the UK has been completed, although they are of course free to come and go as they please.

You can learn more in this rather long winded document http://www.bia.homeoffice.gov.uk/sit...eaandswissnats

MoreMilesPlease

What about applying for an Irish residency visa for you wife? That way she will also have a permanent status prior to entering the UK and be able to work if desired.

digdug

Would we not be required to live in Ireland to get a residency visa? We were just planning on getting a residency permit for the UK, which we can also apply for in advance (but have to renew soon after we arrive).

And thanks for the replies, everyone! I'm starting to feel a bit more relaxed about all this.

BHDBOY

Irish residency visas are not equivalent to UK visas, your wife would need to apply for a UK residency permit.

If your UK PhD is in Northern Ireland, this would count towards Irish residency for naturalisation of your wife on the grounds of marriage to an Irish Citizen. However if your PhD is based in England/Scotland or Wales then this won't apply.

Aviatrix

I think you're a bit behind the times here. All EU citizens (with the exception of Romanians and Bulgarians - as an interim measure) enjoy the right of free movement throughout the EU which includes the UK. We do not need to complete five years of residence, not do we need to be granted "indefinite leave to remain" - this all went out of the window some time in the last century (1990s I think)

To get back to the OP: As a national of a member state of the EU you have an absolute right to bring your wife with you. As your spouse she is covered by your Free Movement rights throughout the European Union (except, paradoxically, in Ireland - if you're in the country of which you are a citizen then national laws take precedence over EU laws, and the principle of Free Movement does not apply).

As for passport renewal - no issue whatsoever. Your passport just needs to be valid on the day that you enter the country, that's all. UK Immigration are not allowed to ask you any questions about length of stay etc (as you have a right to enter the country under Free Movement provisions)

BHDBOY

Aviatrix, I am no immigration lawyer but if you look into it you will find that in some circumstances, Irish citizens still receive preferential treatment over the basic EU treaty rights. In practice for coming and going, right to work etc there is little practical difference between Irish and other EU citizens in the UK and the status of "indefinite leave to remain" is in most circumstances of little relevance, I stated that in my previous post.

The best example I can think of Irish Citizens receiving different treatment from other EU nationals is the following, an Irish couple and a German couple move to the UK and each have a child shortly after their arrival, say 9 months for simplicity. Both couples are perfectly free to live and work in the UK. However, it is my understanding that the Irish couple could claim British (and of course Irish) citizenship for their child on the grounds that Irish citizens have a presumed "indefinite leave to remain" and are deemed "settled" in the UK in the eyes of UK law. The German couple could not claim British citizenship for their child as they are only exercising treaty rights and are not deemed "settled" until they have been in the UK for the 5 year period.

digdug

Great stuff, even if some of the details are up for debate. Thanks again! Of course I would appreciate further answers if anyone else wishes to contribute.

Aviatrix

BHDBOY, I have just checked with a recent law graduate (my other half!), and you are right about Irish citizens enjoying certain additional rights in the UK over and above EU rights (the one you mentioned - about entitlement to British citizenship for their children - is one of them). This is all to do with laws that were passed when Ireland became independent and which are still in force.

digdug, don't bother applying for an Irish residence permit for your wife. For the reasons I mentioned earlier an Irish one may actually be more difficult to get than a UK one in your case... and a UK one is all you need as you'll be living in the UK.

Another thing I just thought of, unrelated to any Immigration issues... when you apply for your university place make sure you put your nationality as Irish. There are two fee bands for university tuition fee (EU nationals and everybody else), so you should be able to pay at the lower rate. Not 100% sure about this, though, as the rules keep changing and it may be that you have to be resident in the EU to claim the lower rate.

NickB

The most visible additional right that Irish citizens have over other EU nationals is the right to vote in general elections (EU citizens can only vote in local and European elections).

The 5 year period mentioned by BHDBOY for EU citizens other than Irish is the "right of permanent residence": before 5 years, your right of residence in the UK is conditional upon your fulfilling certain conditions (essentially either be economically active or have independent means so as not to be a burden on the social assistance system). After 5 years, you acquire a right of permanent residence and can only be expelled from the country in highly exceptional circumstances.

ajax

And I do believe that this "right of permanenet residence" is required - even for EU citizens - for all people before applying for naturalisation as a British Citizen.

* Other caveats apply, namely the duration-of-residence requirements and, IIRC, the renunciation of citizenship of the other EU member state when naturalised as a British Citizen.

Aviatrix

There is no such requirement (and never has been AFAIK)

Several other EU countries (such as Germany) have a rule whereby citizenship is lost if a citizen actively seeks the citizenship of another country. For German citizens (don't know about others) this rule now no longer applies in cases where the other country is a member state of the EU.

(The definition of "actively seeking another citizenship" is that you apply for it. It citizenship is granted automatically - e.g., through marriage - then the original citizenship is not lost)

digdug

Aviatrix, thanks for the tip...unfortunately I did look into this and it turns out that you indeed have to be a resident (3+ years of residency) to qualify for the EU rate. That's why I'm so reliant on getting funding, so fingers crossed.

ajax

Hence the IIRC.

Oh I had no idea. That's actually quite interesting. I'll have to investigate this more. Being the citizen of the EU country in which I reside, I have not experienced this myself and had only been told this by some not-very-informed acquaintances.

Are there any EU countries left in which citizenship is granted automatically through marriage? I am pretty sure that France used to do this but changed their laws within the past few years.