Short trip report BOS-IAD-SJC
Jul 23, 2001, 8:13 am
#16
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First of all, I don't believe I should have the final say. Even if I could, I wouldn't want to. My apologies if I implied otherwise.
The UA thread started as a discussion about UA no longer supporting the Boy Scouts. I was going post (summary: UA is an airline and should stay out of controversial charities), but by the time I came across the thread, it had quickly evolved into a Gay Rights Or Else topic. Accusations of bigotry being hurled for not being 100% supportive is what I mean by "... Or Else".
Believe me, I have nothing against the Gay Rights movement. I would rather not be personally involved, like marching in Gay Parades, but I that doesn't mean I'm a homophobe.
What I object to when I see things like "oooh, you brought up the person's race, so you must be racist" is this -- as far as I can tell, the whole point of the anti-discrimination movement is to try to convince the public that race should be relegated to a physical description, and not an implication, whether positive *OR* negative, about that person's abilities, personality, etc.
That is, a racist remark would be "the purser gave terrible service; of course, he was black, so what did you expect". There would be an obvious implication that black == bad service. That's not what tfung wrote at all. But that's just my reading of it.
In fact, I would go so far as to say that the fact that the purser was black is a good thing to mention. Remember the "good ol' days", when the higher-paying positions were whites-only (not just FA's, any business)? Yes, it's too bad the service was poor, but FA's of any race have given poor as well as good service, and race has nothing to do with it.
If the FA's race can be brought up only if the service is good, that, IMHO, is more "racist" than what tfung wrote. **Race should not imply good or bad**, and self-censorship of race when the service is bad meets my definition of "racism".
The UA thread started as a discussion about UA no longer supporting the Boy Scouts. I was going post (summary: UA is an airline and should stay out of controversial charities), but by the time I came across the thread, it had quickly evolved into a Gay Rights Or Else topic. Accusations of bigotry being hurled for not being 100% supportive is what I mean by "... Or Else".
Believe me, I have nothing against the Gay Rights movement. I would rather not be personally involved, like marching in Gay Parades, but I that doesn't mean I'm a homophobe.
What I object to when I see things like "oooh, you brought up the person's race, so you must be racist" is this -- as far as I can tell, the whole point of the anti-discrimination movement is to try to convince the public that race should be relegated to a physical description, and not an implication, whether positive *OR* negative, about that person's abilities, personality, etc.
That is, a racist remark would be "the purser gave terrible service; of course, he was black, so what did you expect". There would be an obvious implication that black == bad service. That's not what tfung wrote at all. But that's just my reading of it.
In fact, I would go so far as to say that the fact that the purser was black is a good thing to mention. Remember the "good ol' days", when the higher-paying positions were whites-only (not just FA's, any business)? Yes, it's too bad the service was poor, but FA's of any race have given poor as well as good service, and race has nothing to do with it.
If the FA's race can be brought up only if the service is good, that, IMHO, is more "racist" than what tfung wrote. **Race should not imply good or bad**, and self-censorship of race when the service is bad meets my definition of "racism".
Jul 23, 2001, 8:55 am
#17
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Maybe I am oversensitized by spending a lot of years in Ohio in the 70's and 80's where everything was about race.
Disclosure: I'm white.
Examples:
1). When I went out to eat with co-workers, they would avoid the lines at the fast-food places with Black cashiers -- why? Because they were "too slow".
2). One guy I knew used the team "Real Americans" -- he meant White people.
3). People would sell their houses at below market value to avoid an open listing on the chance that they would have to sell to an African-American.
People see bad drivers all the time. But if that bad driver is Asian, the driver's race is often mentioned. Everyone will nod in recognition. Of course, that remark was racist.
I once came into work and said "I saw the worst driver ever -- he almost ran into me." Then with a knowing glance I said, "White guy". People looked at me like I was insane. Why bring that up? (If I said "Asian woman", everyone would have nodded in agreement).
Nonwithstanding the disclaimer, this is a racist remark (that doesn't mean the author is racist). The sentence is constructed as a cause and effect. The relevant remark for this forum is that a United purser was lazy and rude. This man represents United, not his race.
And this has nothing to do with "political correctness" (I hate that term, and almost anyone who uses it listens to way too much right-wing talk radio).
Disclosure: I'm white.
Examples:
1). When I went out to eat with co-workers, they would avoid the lines at the fast-food places with Black cashiers -- why? Because they were "too slow".
2). One guy I knew used the team "Real Americans" -- he meant White people.
3). People would sell their houses at below market value to avoid an open listing on the chance that they would have to sell to an African-American.
People see bad drivers all the time. But if that bad driver is Asian, the driver's race is often mentioned. Everyone will nod in recognition. Of course, that remark was racist.
I once came into work and said "I saw the worst driver ever -- he almost ran into me." Then with a knowing glance I said, "White guy". People looked at me like I was insane. Why bring that up? (If I said "Asian woman", everyone would have nodded in agreement).
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">
The purser on the flight who was serviing F class was an African American male, and I'm not trying to be racist or anything, but he's the laziest and rudest FA I have ever had on United
</font>
The purser on the flight who was serviing F class was an African American male, and I'm not trying to be racist or anything, but he's the laziest and rudest FA I have ever had on United
</font>
And this has nothing to do with "political correctness" (I hate that term, and almost anyone who uses it listens to way too much right-wing talk radio).
Jul 23, 2001, 9:35 am
#18
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Mexico City, Mexico
Posts: 101
I feel that there is a distinctly American bias on this board as to what is and is not politically correct. It is quite common and acceptable in other multi-race cultures (Brazil and Mexico, to name two where I have experience) to describe people by skin color/background without offending anyone or sounding racist, or in fact, having any thought given to it whatsoever. The racism here is not in noting that the flight attendant was African-American, but in the American bias that it was wrong to do so. This being an international board with multi-cultural participants, one would hope for more of a world-view regarding racism and culture, rather than the American PC view.
Jul 24, 2001, 8:40 am
#21
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I seriously do not believe that tfung is racist or intended for his statement to sound that way.
However, I will say that as a rule of thumb, if one ever finds the need to say something along the lines of "I'm not trying to be racist but...", "I'm not a racist but...", or "Not to sound racist but...", etc., the comment is probably inappropriate and should at least be rephrased in a less offensive manner.
However, I will say that as a rule of thumb, if one ever finds the need to say something along the lines of "I'm not trying to be racist but...", "I'm not a racist but...", or "Not to sound racist but...", etc., the comment is probably inappropriate and should at least be rephrased in a less offensive manner.
Jul 24, 2001, 8:53 am
#22
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by BizJet:
No one has mentioned that tfung mentioned that the purser was male. tfung must be a sexist.</font>
No one has mentioned that tfung mentioned that the purser was male. tfung must be a sexist.</font>
If Tfung had said, "I'm not sexist but...." then I would have brought that to our attention.
Jul 24, 2001, 9:07 am
#23
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Join Date: May 1999
Posts: 46,817
Oh my gosh! Better safe than sorry, so perhaps we should leave out any details - or better yet, not even post at all! 
They already explained and apologized!
Let's all be aware of how what we post may be interpreted, but at the same time also permit a bit of "slack," okay?
Just my 0.02!
They already explained and apologized!
Let's all be aware of how what we post may be interpreted, but at the same time also permit a bit of "slack," okay?
Just my 0.02!
Jul 25, 2001, 6:37 am
#26
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by pegasus8228:
perhaps take his picture instead of describing what he looks like?</font>
perhaps take his picture instead of describing what he looks like?</font>
I've basically been just very forgetful in bringing my camera with me.. I always happen to leave for the airport last minute, and keep on fogetting it. But I'm definetely going to bring my camera with me for my trip down to South American early next month.. =)