Very sensible and enlightening posts here. I like it. By the way, I learned what a carpetbagger is; looked it up.

Interesting insights on the nature of how limousine and taxi businesses operate. That makes me think even more that $20 would be too much.

I totally agree with the Egypt example and would behave alike.

The bazaar example is a good one, too. It shows a mentality where prices are artificially hiked up and haggling is expected. I don't like it, either.

I also totally agree with the wine example and it supports what I said earlier about a tip being not an extra remuneration or part of the salary and not directly related to the final total product price. Somebody who pays an extra $500 just to have a bottle of wine opened must be totally out of their mind.

"yea god forbid you throw a few extra bucks to someone performing a sh*t job. might spoil your day. how about you toss your tightwad beliefs aside and make someones day. too much to ask?"

Yes, asked too much. See reasons above. In addition, we are not talking about charity here. When it comes to charity I am actually quite generous and when it comes to social infrastructure, I would gladly pay more taxes so that everybody can get access to healthcare and education (no more waiting tables while in college, being tired in class). But that's another subject.

Till

These posts are almost made by people in a profession that has benefited from the out of control tipping culture in the US and elsewhere.

Obviously this thread is now heading down the usual "tipping" pro/con discussion .... but really, why is it yours and anyone else's responsibility what type of work someone selects? Who is out there looking out for me if I don't like my job - no one but me.

If the driver/waitress, etc isn't happy with their chosen profession, find another one but don't put the onus on the customer and make it be their fault. Furthermore, why is it your business if someone chooses to spend those few extra dollars or not -- e.g. throwing any their cash or rewarding someone for service, however you want to look at it. It's their own personal decision. If the driver/waitress, etc is unhappy with the result, then they could look at their own performance to improve it the next time.

IMO, if people continue to blindly pay out regardless of service quality received, there is no incentive in the world to ever improve the declining levels of service that we all get to experience most everyday.

+1

The arguments advanced here are more interesting, though, than those we found in a recent thread on the subject.

I also have friends who worked in such an industry and they tip very generously even though they don't have a lot of money. I've talked about the subject with them. They see my arguments but still tip like that. I see their behavior but they are still my friends.

Till

Thanks to those who suggested that the tip may be included, not expected or taken care of by my friends. I will ask them. The destination is Greenwich, btw.

i see your points and respect them. i just dont understand why it is so hard to throw a few extra bucks someones way, and maybe make their day, no matter what they do for a living. i understand that not everyone can afford to throw money around. myself, my friends, and most of the people who travel for busness will not be put out one bit by an extra dollar or two. listening to people justify things because of anything else, except the fact that they are cheap, is laughable. i happen to be a big tipper. some people are not and that is their business and none of mine but to see people writing page after page trying to justify it is a joke. if you are cheap then you are cheap. just say it and dont hide behind a bunch of nonsense because deep down you are embarrassed...

LOL - re-read that, you respect NOTHING if you turn it into a calling someone who disagrees with you names.

Oh and while I can only talk for myself -- no embarassment and not cheap - I buy what I want and pay the bill. I add what I feel is commensurate with what I think the delivered service deserved - it doesn't make me cheap. Personally, I think it makes me smart If you want to show off and spend all that money, go for it.

Oh, and don't assume anymore that people who travel for business have a bottomless expense account to go against. Times are tough out there in case you aren't aware of it.

We obviously don't have the same definition of nonsense.

Why would anyone so intelligent as to comprehend and apply the "fair tipping" arguments be embarrassed? Do you mean for not being wealthy?

Besides wealthy being relative, it is a well-known fact among those with old money that new money spends more conspicuously and has a tendency to overtip.

Till

i am not calling anyone names. cheap is cheap. very simple. you said yourself that times are tough. why not spread it around a little?

cheap is cheap, stupid is stupid and giving away/spending money like it grows on trees is the latter

why not spread it around a little? I want to ask that to Bill Gates he can SURELY give ME money (I mean giving me 5k USD is peanuts...if he doesn't do it he is cheap??) Better yet, Bill Gates feel free to make MY day ANYTIME

once again, I have NO problem whatsoever with paying for a service and rewarding quality, but this blackmailing as 'you are cheap if you dont give me x' doesn't do much convincing me about the tipping nonsense

btw they seem to be quite into the 'spreading it around a little bit' how about if you google "retention bonuses bailout" or something along those lines.

Also, see how far this sense of entitlement goes into the 'you are cheap' line, when someone performs a good service for me I normally RECOMMEND the person/establishment to OTHER people, I know that 'instant gratification' and 'me me now now' are deep ingrained .......but sometimes long term thinking is better

Simple name calling you mean.

The point which 4444 and a few others does not seem to understand and did not understand from my post is that a NYC (or area) non-medallion Livery driver is NOT a restaurant minimum wage worker living on tips. Such a person often for the reasons I highlighted above does NOT expect a tip as it is in essence built into their distance fees (incidentally perfectly good livery companies can be arranged to/fr Greenwich and LGA for as little as $70, the most expensive hover around $100, so far from "AT LEAST $120" that we saw written above.....Google it if you want, its not rocket science).

A $20 tip is absolutely excesive, especially considering that no one that has a corporate account, who might in fact be paying LESS at a contract rate would ever tip, and these guys are not expecting it. Again, if you want to throw $5 or $10 at the guy because you feel like it, great! But it is not necessary....

Wirelessly posted (Palm TX: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows 98; PalmSource/Palm-D050; Blazer/4.3) 16;320x448)

this thread gets better and better......

To the OP:

I would be careful in how you ask your friends about this. You certainly don't want it to come off as though you were ungrateful or wanting them to pay the tip. You could say that you want to pay at least half or at least the tip. Then they can tell you wether the tip is included without the conversation turning awkward. In any case, bring them a nice present.

Till

After going out with European coworkers who are visiting in the US, I have to sneak back to the table and raise the tip they leave before the waitress sees it.

It's nice of you to save your coworkers some money but why don't you just explain the tipping situation here?

Till