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Old Sep 27, 2008, 8:10 pm
  #16  
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Originally Posted by spleenstomper
Once we almost missed the flight (I think this was SMF) because of a combination of factors, mostly long lines at any conceivable waiting spot.... we actually RAN to the concourse with car seats and 3 kids in tow and got there as they were boarding the last section. I suppose that might be "not even close to missing the flight" by some people, but that was way closer than I would ever feel comfortable about it happening.

I haven't had an incident like that since, so I guess it was just the odds game....
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Old Sep 27, 2008, 9:55 pm
  #17  
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By the way, if you are mostly doing short distances (and that's where the whole private flying business saves you more time) you may want to look into prop planes, too. I've seen used ATRs go for less than $2m, and it's a frame big enough to be reconfigured into an office and a couple of beds...
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Old Sep 28, 2008, 2:36 am
  #18  
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Originally Posted by Wilbur
Having worked in a company with multiple company jets, and flown in those jets, just the ability to avoid the TSA is worth it, much less the other hassles. As D'Artagnan points out, you can be incredibly productive in the much shorter time you are actually traveling.

On the other hand, the strong correlation between companies that own jets and companies that do not really serve their stockholder's best interests is very discouraging. Somewhere there is a Treasury study on this relationship that convinced me to sell the shares of any company that enters into a lease or ownership relationship for a company plane.
Are you familiar with Buffett naming his plane "The Indefensible"?
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Old Sep 28, 2008, 3:26 am
  #19  
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We are a Fortune 500.1 company, located a mile next to a regional airport, and I'm very surprised that we don't have a company plane.

Then again, you won't get any miles.
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Old Sep 28, 2008, 7:38 am
  #20  
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http://flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=776155

http://www.elitetraveler.com/business/2008-0911.html#4
London Executive Aviation ('LEA'), one of Europe's largest private jet charter operators, reports that two clear trends are emerging in the charter market as the economy slows.

...in the corporate market, many businesses are downsizing to a new generation of small, four-passenger jets in order to conserve travel budgets.

"The charter market looks to have come off its recent high, but demand is still well ahead of traditional levels. That suggests that people have really embraced private jet chartering as a time management tool," says chief executive Patrick Margetson-Rushmore. "What stands out in particular is that, rather than stopping flying, businesses are downsizing to smaller, greener jets."

"With the advent of the latest small aircraft, customers are rightly choosing not to pay for jets larger than they need - the average group size is 2 to 3 people, so why waste money on acres of empty seats?" he says. "Companies don't want to spend Rolls-Royce money on BMW journeys."

The economic slowdown has coincided with the introduction of a new generation of entry level business jets, generally termed Very Light Jets, or VLJs. The first fully operational aircraft in this class is Cessna's Citation Mustang, and in June 2008 LEA became Europe's first Mustang fleet operator. These new aircraft offer the time-saving benefits of private aviation in a more compact, affordable package. A Citation Mustang can fly up to four passengers non-stop to virtually any European destination, at speeds approaching 400 mph; however, with Mustang charter prices 30-40% below those of conventional mid-size jets, private jet travel can now be had for the same price as a turboprop aircraft.

"When we ordered our Mustang fleet five years ago there was no way of knowing how the economy would be today," says Margetson-Rushmore. "However, the current climate really plays to the aircraft's strengths. For the average European private flight the Mustang should be your weapon of choice."

...
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Old Sep 28, 2008, 1:29 pm
  #21  
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Yeah, I'm familiar with the VLJ category. Doesn't seem like a bad thing for my needs; although I like being able to stand - or at least almost stand - and being 193cm tall, that's difficult in them. A used G3 isn't so bad; and the insurance doesn't seem to cost too much. And the financial impact you can have from chartering it can be large, whereas a Honda VLJ may not generate any revenue.

I don't think I'd ever fly overseas privately - too expensive, requires a large jet, and international first class is fine (as is Lufthansa's first class lounge). But for domestic travel, it seems smart.
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Old Sep 28, 2008, 2:15 pm
  #22  
 
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Originally Posted by abcxyz
Yeah, I'm familiar with the VLJ category. Doesn't seem like a bad thing for my needs; although I like being able to stand - or at least almost stand - and being 193cm tall, that's difficult in them. A used G3 isn't so bad; and the insurance doesn't seem to cost too much. And the financial impact you can have from chartering it can be large, whereas a Honda VLJ may not generate any revenue.

I don't think I'd ever fly overseas privately - too expensive, requires a large jet, and international first class is fine (as is Lufthansa's first class lounge). But for domestic travel, it seems smart.
Do you have a clue how expensive a light jet costs to own & run? That's why the fractionals and on-demand charters have found a sweetspot. What price did you find for that insurace "that does't seem to cost too much", what was the hull and liability and what were the requirements for the captain and FO if a 2-crew plane? What were the engine hot section and rebuild costs, what was the hourly Jet A-1 burn? The numbers make your hair stand on end. I have personal experience of a company that went from a Duke to an older King Air 90 (not even a jet but a TP) and the increase in hourly costs were crazy.
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Old Sep 28, 2008, 2:35 pm
  #23  
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Originally Posted by timfountain
Do you have a clue how expensive a light jet costs to own & run? That's why the fractionals and on-demand charters have found a sweetspot. What price did you find for that insurace "that does't seem to cost too much", what was the hull and liability and what were the requirements for the captain and FO if a 2-crew plane? What were the engine hot section and rebuild costs, what was the hourly Jet A-1 burn? The numbers make your hair stand on end. I have personal experience of a company that went from a Duke to an older King Air 90 (not even a jet but a TP) and the increase in hourly costs were crazy.
Yes, I'm familiar with the costs, and picking the aircraft, etc, etc. I hired a just-graduated pilot from flight school to do research for me. The only thing that stopped me from buying a G3 is the fact that must fractional programmes make the plane be 10 years or younger; G3s aren't.

I know what insurance will be; or did until the meltdown on Wall St, and am familiar with figures to pay pilots, and all the other fun things (aircraft maintenance, certifying, etc, etc, etc). But I still think it will be a good move - fiscally - but more importantly, for my sanity, to purchase a plane, set up a management programme with NetJets, and use it when I need it, give it out at other times (as long as I can put a bed in the plane, then I'm happy - who knows what NetJets will require to have "the same features on each aircraft").

The whole point of me purchasing a plane out right would be to charter it 90% of the time, use it 10% of the time.
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Old Sep 28, 2008, 3:41 pm
  #24  
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abcxyz,

i recently saw some charter operators that had some jets with custom interiors. (bedrooms etc)

and the resale market is apparently growing, although prices havent really started dropping yet.
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Old Sep 28, 2008, 3:49 pm
  #25  
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which is safer, commercial or private, when flying across the Atlantic?
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Old Sep 28, 2008, 3:50 pm
  #26  
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I would say private. Pilots tend to be more experienced. The chance of terrorism in an aeroplane is practically zero - but at least you know who is on the plane with you on a private jet.
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Old Sep 28, 2008, 4:05 pm
  #27  
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Originally Posted by bornatsea
which is safer, commercial or private, when flying across the Atlantic?
you just have to make sure youre getting/paying for good pilots/maintenance.

re commercial, IIRC when i flew E0 (RIP ) the pilots had 40K hours between them.

Last edited by Kagehitokiri; Sep 28, 2008 at 5:34 pm
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Old Sep 28, 2008, 4:09 pm
  #28  
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Oh, indeed. You pay for that, but when you give NetJets the aircraft, they deal with all that. It's somewhat of an asset - the G3s have a good resale value, and they work really well (all I'd add to a first gen. one would be Internet capabilities). Though then I run into the problem of finding a company that will use my plane.

That's what it comes to. I was just really interested in knowing if people are sick of commercial flying and if they had the means, just fly private, or if for some reason, stay with commercial flights.

NB I looked at that website from the article they posted and they said 15% of planes from LHR are private - I find that hard to believe. They are trying to get private planes to go elsewhere, and several small aeroports are all around. Sounds fishy, tbh - though I'm sure they have some statistic that cherry picks what they want to say.
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Old Sep 28, 2008, 5:31 pm
  #29  
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from my link.. >
"Over 15% of flights in the U.S. are by private jet"

"there are more private jet flights into and out of London than daily British Airways flights"
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Old Sep 28, 2008, 5:34 pm
  #30  
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Oh, figures..need to sleep sometime. ; ) But too much work to do. This holiday turned into hell - 18 hours a day in front of a computer working.

I still find that hard to believe for the aforementioned. Unless they are including the surrounding areas, but when you think of London, you think of LHR - and *maybe LHR/LGW, not the private aeroports.
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