You do neet to be careful with this one. Many European countries accept members of the EU under the terms of that treaty. They also accept 'guest workers' and refugees who have no chance of earning citizenship. Many European countries are extremely strict about accepting immigrants on a citizenship path. There are Turks in Germany who were born in Germany, whose parents were born in Germany who are not eligible for citizenship.

That said, I am sure that you can find exceptions for every rule. Many European countries are very good about granting citizenship to spouses, including those I am sure who do not speak the language.

I am pretty familiar with immigration policies in a few European countries and about the dynamics between the new EU member countries and the established ones. I'm also familiar with some ridiculous immigration things like Denmark's ridiculous immigration policy that forces Danes married to Americans to move to Sweden and commute back to Denmark for work while a Brit married to a Kazakh can live in Copenhagen without anywhere as much government stink. I'm also aware of some American immigration ridiculousness when it comes to spouses of American citizens, especially from VWP countries. And that's just the start of it if going down the citizenship debate.

The talk was about accepting immigrants .... not about giving out citizenship.

I find stut's comments match my own thoughts.

When I am traveling for pleasure, I am more likely to take some time to learn a little bit of the language and customs, both because I have more time to do so, and because I will have more time to use them. For work, if I learned the local language of everywhere I went in the past three years, I would have needed to learn 18 languages and 9 alphabets (not counting Japanese Kanji) some of which I would have used for as little as three days. This doesn't even count numerous African languages which are used as well as the colonial languages of English and French. I just don't have that kind of facility with languages, so I rely on the kindness of strangers.

Sorry, the question seems to turn on the definition of immigrants. I think of an immigrant as someone who is permanently relocating (and perceived that way by the host government). Many of the non-nationals in Europe do not fit that definition. It is presumed that they will return to their 'home' country, even if that is not in reality the case. Your view seems to take a broader definition. So, on that note, I will let the matter rest.

I do not dispute any of your arguments about the current status of American immigration policy which is often arcane, inhumane, and non-functional.

I agree with you, the borders should be closed

[QUOTE=LapLap]I�m not suggesting you only visit American franchises, but you can learn a lot about the culture your visiting by seeing the unfamiliar items available in these familiar surroundings.[QUOTE]

When in Hyderabad I thought the Tandoori Supreme from Pizza Hut was totally amazing!

So, apparently I'm not the only one who defines an immigrant this way

Of course not. There's always someone.

You claimed that

You doubt that there are "any European countries" that would accept immigrants who don't speak the "official" language(s) (unless rich or famous)? Well, the facts don't stand with you. I know Americans, Australians, Indians, Chinese, Thais, Malaysians and New Zealanders who have the Swedish PUT-bevis -- permanent residency -- and don't speak any Swedish more than "hamburger", "apple" and other words of that sort. Nor are they what I would identify as "rich" and certainly not famous.

So much for the theory about there not being any European countries accepting immigrants who don't speak the official languages unless they are rich or famous.

Now are we going to have more goal-post moving by way of new qualifications? Hopefully not.

Many of the "non-nationals" in Europe do fit what I stated earlier... government perception or misperception besides the point.

And promptly forgot it ... :Q

Been waiting for some spare time to reply to this thread. So, my apologies if my reply runs long.

I would like to think that I do try to fit in as well as I can, consistent with stut's comments, as I pretty much agree with him. This is why I've learned as many languages as I have. My knowledge of Italian and Hebrew are directly attributable to my trips to Italy and Israel.

My experiences speaking foreign languages in foreign countries varies greatly. The French love that I speak with them in French and give me every opportunity to do so (as my French co-workers often do, as well), even though I rarely run into people who can't speak English (or so I suspect -- I think a lot of those who say they can't are just a little shy about it).

Germans, however, never seem to let me speak German with them! They're always reverting back to English on me! And, my German, although not as good as my French, is totally sufficient for conversation; they usually complement me on my competency. The only times I really get to speak German is if I meet a native German speaker who doesn't speak German (like my friend's father), which I've found to be rare, or I meet a native German speaker who is really accomodating.

Now Italian I picked up because I love Italy (as I do France, particularly southern France) and it's been my experience that one is much more likely to run into an Italian who can't speak English than most places in western Europe. Didn't know much the first time I went, but managed to learn a lot more by my second visit. Having a working knowledge of some Italian was a huge plus!

I decided to learn Hebrew out of respect for the place, it's an interesting language and not knowing any of the language leaves you at everyone's mercy. That last part is another reason why I study languages when I travel and it's something of a male, power thing of which I'm not terribly proud. Funny thing is that as I was trying to leave Israel and getting raked over the coals by the Israeli border guards (as were my two companions), I slipped up and it came out that I know some Hebrew. That made them WAY suspicious of me! And, since then I've learned much more than I knew then. I'd like to go back; the Hebrew will actually help me out. Of course, one can get by completely fine with just English when in Israel, but I love learning languages and will often take any excuse to do so.

But, beyond learning languages, learning about local customs and how they live is, in my opinion, one of the most important reasons to travel!

I nearly cried when I saw that Starbucks. I've referred to it elsewhere on FT.

Y'know, I hear y'all's points on this and can see the logic, but I simply cannot bring myself to go to McDonald's when I'm in Provence (for example). Sorry. I just can't!!!

Now, as far as all this acceptance of immigrants stuff goes, I only want to say that it is my understanding that the French are very accepting of immigrants, provided they assimilate into the culture. Sure, pockets of immigrants who don't assimilate into the broader culture exist, but it is far more looked down up than we Americans tend to do. But, that's all I'm going to say, as I think this part of the thread is deteriorating rapidly.

Well, the EU is a special case. As a citizen of the UK, I have the right to migrate to any EU country without having to speak a language or assimilate in the slightest way, if that's what I want. I think it's a daft thing to do, but I have that right.

I also take the time to skim the guidebook and learn just a little about the history and cluture so that I can ask locals easy questions about it, which usually allows me to learn a lot more, directly from the source. I also think it's important to have a great sense of humor and not take yourself too seriously when in other countries.

There are certain Starbucks and McDonalds outlets around the world that if someone came along at night (when no-one was in there) and demolished them with a bulldozer, I genuinely don't think they ought to be prosecuted for it. Some of them are so ruthlessly ugly and improperly situated that they don't deserve legal protection. (Obviously I wouldn't want anything to happen to the actual people that work there).

I have done a quick review of what appears on the web regarding the requirements of Sweden on permanent residency status (and citizenship as well), and indeed, they do not require Swedish language skills as a requirement. That said, I am now curious. Are these people that you know primarily the spouses/significant others of Swedes or did they simply decide to move to Sweden? The government websites sugggest that while you can get permanent residency through employment, it is not easy to get employment approval because Swedes and EU/EEA citizens are in front of you in line (so to speak). Also, I would assume that most employers would want you to speak Swedish (although I know that there are some careers where this is unnecessary).