Aborted Landing Explanations
Jun 27, 2006, 1:18 pm
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 2005
Programs: ATA Elite, SW RR hoi polloi
Posts: 176
Aborted Landing Explanations
For those of you who have been on planes that have aborted landing pretty late (any time between reaching the airport and the wheels ready to touch down), did the pilot give you an explanation afterwards?
The first two times it happened to me, the pilot came on immediately after we got back up to explain (first one was a snowstorm, and a small plane had skidded on our runway; second one was a thunderstorm, and the plane got hit with a tail wind at the last minute...NOT good at MDW!). It made me feel a lot better because at least I knew that was going on.
On our WN flight to MCO yesterday, we were stuck circling for half an hour due to storms. Then we went to land and had just reached the airport property when the pilot picked 'er up again. He never gave any explanation, and it took quite a while before we tried again...thankfully, successfully. But Xanax was the only thing keeping me from having a panic attack, since I was flashing back to a previous bad experience. For me, it's much better if I have an explanation because otherwise my mind runs rampant with all sorts of awful possibilities. I asked the FA after we handed and got a vague "It was the weather"-type response.
So do the pilots usually explain, or were the first two experiences flukes?
The first two times it happened to me, the pilot came on immediately after we got back up to explain (first one was a snowstorm, and a small plane had skidded on our runway; second one was a thunderstorm, and the plane got hit with a tail wind at the last minute...NOT good at MDW!). It made me feel a lot better because at least I knew that was going on.
On our WN flight to MCO yesterday, we were stuck circling for half an hour due to storms. Then we went to land and had just reached the airport property when the pilot picked 'er up again. He never gave any explanation, and it took quite a while before we tried again...thankfully, successfully. But Xanax was the only thing keeping me from having a panic attack, since I was flashing back to a previous bad experience. For me, it's much better if I have an explanation because otherwise my mind runs rampant with all sorts of awful possibilities. I asked the FA after we handed and got a vague "It was the weather"-type response.
So do the pilots usually explain, or were the first two experiences flukes?
Jun 27, 2006, 1:50 pm
#3
Join Date: Aug 2004
Programs: BA Executive Club
Posts: 37
The last time it happend to me was on an approach to DUS with Lufthansa a few days ago. After the pilot flew to the right and did the go around he came up with the following (after a minute or so): Due to a Controller in training the distance to another aircraft wasn`t enough anymore and that`s why we will fly another circle over Essen and try the approach again in a few minutes." I think no one was really scared of the business travellers and the few tourists enjoyed the view.
Jun 27, 2006, 1:52 pm
#4
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 1999
Programs: FB Silver going for Gold
Posts: 21,835
Generally, yes. Of the 3 aborted landings (getting close to runway) I've had, 2 were due to previous a/c landing that hadn't cleared the runway (AC @ YHZ, CX @ LGW). A 3rd was a DL 727 landing into RNO. No explanation but I think it was just a misapproach due to high crosswinds (landing was aborted way above the runway).
Jun 27, 2006, 1:54 pm
#5
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: 99654
Programs: Many
Posts: 6,450
the worst one was almost 8 years back. Returning from MCI to LGA.
weather was bad, and we had already made a fuel stop at ALB after
going around in circle.
We had a succesful landing after 3 attempts, There was nothing on the PA,
but it was certainly due to wind gusts.
been through couple other aborts, but I didnt pay much attention to the
announcement.
weather was bad, and we had already made a fuel stop at ALB after
going around in circle.
We had a succesful landing after 3 attempts, There was nothing on the PA,
but it was certainly due to wind gusts.
been through couple other aborts, but I didnt pay much attention to the
announcement.
Jun 27, 2006, 2:28 pm
#7
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Pittsburgh
Programs: Star Alliance Gold, SPG Plat, Hilton Gold, Marriott Silver, Avis Rock Star
Posts: 1,217
One coming in to PHL last year, apparently the plane ahead didn't clear the active runway expeditiously enough.
Others involved me flying the plane, so don't want to divulge any embarassing details!
Others involved me flying the plane, so don't want to divulge any embarassing details!
Jun 27, 2006, 2:32 pm
#8
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Jupiter, FL
Programs: DL PM, Marriott Lifetime Titanium, Hilton Silver
Posts: 30,242
I have had 5 or 6 aborted landings.
Most were becuase of aircraft not clearing the runway. We were told several minutes after the fact each time.
Two other aborted landing reasons:
Into PBI, we aborted due to the flaps not being deployed completely. We circled over the ocean, attempting to get them in the proper position. Couldn't do it, but landed successfully, albeit a bit faster than normal.
Into CVG, during a thunderstorm, the pilot could not keep the plane straight. We aborted due to the weather at the last minute. We circled around and tried again. It was the only time I was genuinely nervous on a plane.
Most were becuase of aircraft not clearing the runway. We were told several minutes after the fact each time.
Two other aborted landing reasons:
Into PBI, we aborted due to the flaps not being deployed completely. We circled over the ocean, attempting to get them in the proper position. Couldn't do it, but landed successfully, albeit a bit faster than normal.
Into CVG, during a thunderstorm, the pilot could not keep the plane straight. We aborted due to the weather at the last minute. We circled around and tried again. It was the only time I was genuinely nervous on a plane.
Jun 27, 2006, 5:31 pm
#9
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Pittsburgh
Programs: MR/SPG LT Titanium, AA LT PLT, UA SLV, Avis PreferredPlus
Posts: 31,043
I've had two and both were related to aircraft clearning the runway. One was announced about 30 seconds after we pulled up, one about 5 minutes later.
Jun 28, 2006, 1:54 am
#10
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London
Programs: Mucci. Nothing else matters.
Posts: 38,644
Originally Posted by 757-300
So do the pilots usually explain, or were the first two experiences flukes?
But if you've just had to go around, it's an extraordinarily high workload time for the flight crew. It isn't the same as missing a turning when you're driving a car, and just going around the block. There is an almost-unbelievable amount of extra work that needs to be done at the sharp end. Often, the pilots simply don't have the time or the opportunity to explain what has happened - or, at least, couldn't do so without compromising safety.
There's a hoary old saying about priorities in flying: aviate, navigate, communicate. While that's not necessarily appropriate for all airline operations, it does give you an insight into what the crew will be trying to do first. It's unfortunate that telling the pax what's going on has to come further down that list, but it is in the cause of safety.
However, you should bear in mind that go-arounds are very common at major airports. It's said that Heathrow, for example, expects to see a dozen or so of these every normal day. So they're nothing to worry or get anxious about.
Jun 28, 2006, 2:58 am
#11
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: London, England.
Programs: BA
Posts: 8,491
Having flown several missed approaches in G-WHBM I can tell you that indeed passing word along about what and why is the last thing in your mind, even to a passenger sat next to you. There is a lot to do and among other things the crew will be listening intently to the controllers for instructions, looking out for other aircraft that may be taking off, and generally getting on with the job.
Most passenger PA is normally done by the pilot not flying (one flies the plane, the other does navigation and the radio) when they know there will be no ATC transmission to disturb them, and during a missed approach there can be radio calls and instructions at any moment. So give it a few minutes and they may get a chance for a nice "Ho-hum, these things happen" type announcement.
Most passenger PA is normally done by the pilot not flying (one flies the plane, the other does navigation and the radio) when they know there will be no ATC transmission to disturb them, and during a missed approach there can be radio calls and instructions at any moment. So give it a few minutes and they may get a chance for a nice "Ho-hum, these things happen" type announcement.
Jun 28, 2006, 6:15 pm
#12
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: BNA
Programs: HH Gold. (Former) UA PP, DL PM, PC Plat
Posts: 8,265
Here's an example of what may go on in the cockpit during a go-around and subsequent approach. I'm using the procedures and checklists from a DC9 as that's what I now fly. It would be more complex in a more modern airplane with an integrated flight management system. The left column is communications and actions within the cockpit. The right column is radio conversation. Notice how often there are two or three things going on at once.
Keeps ya from getting bored...
Code:
Tower: "Flight 123, Go-around, aircraft on
runway. Climb and maintain three-
thousand, turn left heading one-five zero"
PF: "Missed approach, set max-power,
flaps-five." (pushes power up PNF: "Climbing to three-thousand, left
to roughly max power and raises heading one five zero, Flight 123"
nose to fifteen degrees (Sets 3,000' into altitude alerter)
aircraft-nose-up (ANU). Tower: "Flight 123, Contact departure,
one-one-niner point three-five"
PF: "Positive rate, gear up"
PNF:"Positive rate" (Raises gear)
PNF: "one-one-niner point three-five,
Flight 123" (Tunes frequency
into comm radio)
(Audio alert from altitude alerter)
PNF:"Out of two-thousand for
three-thousand"
PF: "Roger"
PNF:"One-thousand feet"
PF: "Flaps zero, read slat retract
speed" (Lowers nose about five
degrees to accelerate at a
1000 fpm climb)
PNF:(Selects flaps to zero, flips
speed card over and finds the
slat retract speed)
PNF:"Flaps zero set, slat retract
speed one-eight-zero knots" PNF: "XYZ Departure, Flight 123,
leaving two-thousand, five-
hundred, climbing to three-
thousand"
PF: "My throttles, slats retract"
PNF:(selects slats retracted)
PF: "Quick Return Checklist" Dep: "Flight 123, xyz Departure,
PNF:"Quick Return Checklist" Radar contact. Turn left heading
zero-nine-zero"
PNF:(Verifies that the gear is up,
... PNF: "Left heading zero-nine-zero,
... flight 123"
turns off the ignition and
disarms the auto-spoilers.
Picks up the checklist and
reads)
"Gear, up. Flaps, slats,
zero, retracted. Ignition,
off. Down to the line"
PF: "Speeds and go-around EPRs
remain the same. Same approach,
minimums and final approach
course set. Any questions?"
Dep: "Flight 123, turn left heading
three-six-zero."
PNF: "Left, three-six-zero, Flight 123"
PNF:"Understood"
PF: "Left three-six-zero"
PNF:"Roger"
PF: "Below the line"
PNF:"Altimeters two-niner, niner-
two. Set, cross-checked"
PF: "two-niner, niner-two. Set,
Cross-checked"
PNF:"Airspeed, altimeter, EPR bugs,
Set, cross-checked"
PF: "Set, cross-checked"
PNF:"Quick return checklist complete"
PNF:"You have Comm one"
PF: "I have Comm one"
PNF:(On the PA) "Ladies and
gentlemen. Air traffic control DEP: "Flight 123, contact approach,
asked us to go-around because one-two-four point eight-five."
the aircraft ahead of us was not PF: "One-two-four point eight-five,
exiting the runway quickly enough. flight 123"
We will be flying the approach (Tunes 124.85 on comm radio)
again in just a few minutes. "xyz approach, flight 123, level
Thank you for your patience while three-thousand"
we do our jobs up here." APP: "Flight 123, roger. Expect the
ILS runway one-eight. Slow to
two-one-zero knots then descend
and maintain two-thousand, four
hundred"
PF: (sets 2,400 in the altitude
alerter) "two-one-zero knots then
maintain two-thousand, four-
hundred. Flight 123"
PNF:"I have Comm one"
PF: "New frequency, ILS 18,
slowing to two-ten knots,
then cleared to two-thousand,
four-hundred"
PNF:"Roger"
PF: "Slats extend, Flaps five"
PNF:(Selects slats extended,
flaps five)
PF: "Out of three thousand"
PNF:"Three thousand for two-
thousand, four hundred"
PF: "Roger" PNF: "Approach, Flight 123 leaving
three-thousand"
APP: "Flight 123, Roger. Reduce speed
to one-niner-zero knots. You are
following a heavy Boeing seven-
fifty-seven on a five-mile final.
Expect a base turn in two miles"
PNF: "Speed one-niner-zero knots.
Negative contact. Flight 123"
PF: "One-ninety"
PNF:"Roger"
APP: "Flight 123, turn left heading
two-seven-zero"
PNF: "Left heading two-seven-zero,
"flight 123"
PF: "Left two-seventy"
PNF:"Roger"
(listens to the audio from
each nav radio and verifies
the Morse code identifier
for the ILS)
"ILS 18 localizer identified APP: "Flight 123, four miles from
Nav's one and two" HIGUY, turn left heading two-
one-zero, one-seven-zero knots
or greater until HIGUY, maintain
two-thousand four-hundred until
established, cleared ILS one-eight."
PNF: "Left heading two-one-zero, one-
seven-zero knots or greater to
HIGUY, two-thousand, four-hundred
until established, cleared ILS 18,
Flight 123"
PF: "Left two-ten, cleared ILS APP: "Flight 123, contact tower one-one
18. Flaps fifteen" eight point five at HIGUY."
PNF:"Roger" (Selects flaps 15) PNF: "one-one-eight point five at HIGUY,
Flight 123"
PNF:"Flaps 15 set"
PNF:"Localizer alive"
PF: "Roger"
PNF:"Glideslope alive"
PF: "Roger, gear down, before
landing checklist"
PNF:"Before landing checklist"
(Selects gear down, turn ignition
to override. Selects minimums on
altitude alerter. Picks up checklist)
PF: "Crossing HIGUY, flaps twenty-five"
PNF: (Tunes tower frequency)
PNF:(Selects flaps 25) "XYZ Tower, flight 123, ILS 18"
TWR: "Flight 123, caution wake turbulence,
arriving heave seven-fifty-seven
touching down, Runway one-eight,
cleared to land. Runway one-eight
R-V-R four-thousand."
PNF:(Arms auto-spoilers) PNF: "Cleared to land, one-eight, flight
"123"
PNF:"Ignition override, landing
gear..."
PF: "Down, three-green"
PNF:(Check hydraulic pressure and
quantity gauges including brake
pressures)
"Pressure, quantity checked.
Spoilers armed."
PNF:"Gear door open light out.
"Flaps twenty-five set"
PF: "Flaps forty"
PNF:(Selects flaps 40)
PNF:"Slats flaps, extended forty
annunciator panel checked
Before landing checklist
complete"
(Altitude alerter chime)
PNF:"One-thousand above minimums,
cleared to land"
(Selects first altitude restriction
on the missed approach procedure on
the altitude alerter)
PF: "Roger"
PNF:"Five-hundred above minimums,
ref plus five, sink eight-hundred"
PF: "Roger"
PNF:"One-hundred above minimums"
PF: "Roger"
PNF:"Minimums, runway in sight"
PF: "Going visual"
PNF:"Roger, ref plus five, sink seven-hundred.
(Touchdown)
PNF:"Spoilers extended"
"Two-lights, four-lights
one-point-six, one-point-six"
"Eighty knots" TWR: "Flight 123, turn right onto
Charlie-four, contact ground
point niner"
PNF: "Flight 123"
Jun 28, 2006, 7:26 pm
#13
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Lafayette, CO, USA
Programs: SPG Lifetime Plat, AA Gold, UA Gold, DL Silver, HH Gold, Vail Epic
Posts: 9,096
I've been forced to abort as a private pilot when some moron decided that the traffic pattern was not meant for him. Radio communication became last priority for the moment. (In-person communication to that pilot was high priority later on the ground.)
I've only experienced an aborted landing once in a commercial jet, and it was at my home airport of CAE one calm and sunny afternoon. We aborted the landing only a few hundred feet from the runway. About two minutes after climbing out, the pilot explained that a private aircraft had entered our runway.
Before the engines throttled up, I recognized that we our landing was not quite right. I remember it fairly well because the person sitting next to me was already a very nervous flyer. I immediately told her that I thought we were going to circle around again and that it would be nothing to worry about. The announcement later from the pilot was very comforting to her.
I've only experienced an aborted landing once in a commercial jet, and it was at my home airport of CAE one calm and sunny afternoon. We aborted the landing only a few hundred feet from the runway. About two minutes after climbing out, the pilot explained that a private aircraft had entered our runway.
Before the engines throttled up, I recognized that we our landing was not quite right. I remember it fairly well because the person sitting next to me was already a very nervous flyer. I immediately told her that I thought we were going to circle around again and that it would be nothing to worry about. The announcement later from the pilot was very comforting to her.
Jun 29, 2006, 4:46 am
#15
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: London, England.
Programs: BA
Posts: 8,491
Listening to the radio you can often hear it coming.
"ABC 123 reduce to minimum approach speed" (to the inbound aircraft)
"DEF 456 expedite runway clearance" (to the one on the runway)
"ABC 123 expect late landing clearance". By this stage the inbound crew can see what is coming and possibly exchange an "Aw, nuts" or worse with each other - not you of course, LarryJ, I'm sure you are too much of a gentleman.
Slight pause. Nobody speaks. Hopefully it will work out. But if not ...
"ABC 123 Go-around I say again Go-around".
Another pause. As Globaliser says, it's "aviate, navigate, communicate". So the crew get everything done in the style described above before they acknowledge. The tower can see them doing it anyway.
If the aircraft on the runway has really been a pain it can end up with "DEF 456 please contact control tower after shutdown", which means there will be an interesting little discussion afterwards.
"ABC 123 reduce to minimum approach speed" (to the inbound aircraft)
"DEF 456 expedite runway clearance" (to the one on the runway)
"ABC 123 expect late landing clearance". By this stage the inbound crew can see what is coming and possibly exchange an "Aw, nuts" or worse with each other - not you of course, LarryJ, I'm sure you are too much of a gentleman.
Slight pause. Nobody speaks. Hopefully it will work out. But if not ...
"ABC 123 Go-around I say again Go-around".
Another pause. As Globaliser says, it's "aviate, navigate, communicate". So the crew get everything done in the style described above before they acknowledge. The tower can see them doing it anyway.
If the aircraft on the runway has really been a pain it can end up with "DEF 456 please contact control tower after shutdown", which means there will be an interesting little discussion afterwards.