Factotum .. try the train in Hong Kong some time, and you'll see why people (correctly) complain that a change of trains only doable by a set of stairs is, well, a poor compromise.

Even the train from London to LHR involves a lot of walking from the train station to the terminal, but there are no changes in elevations that require one to use stairs.

For a train to be successful for travelers (in addition to employees), any changes from train to train need to be relatively seemless.

Is it good that there's an option? Yes, of course it's good. Is it the best they could have done for almost $2B? Well, it's New York pricing, I suppose, but that is a lot of money, isn't it?

BTW, I still remember the fiasco and bondholder lawsuits that occurred when the PA tried to extend the PATH train into EWR. Remember that one?

-David


[This message has been edited by LIH Prem (edited Dec 19, 2003).]

The bus is no more.

Hoboken Flyer and Factotum

Not everyone lives in Manhattan, and though granted most business and tourists will be going in that direction, this mode of transportation at least gives us locals more options.

Im looking forward to trying this in a couple of months (and hopefully the kinks will have been worked out by then - BTW it was temporarily closed last nite when platform door didnt open).

As for other airports links (such as Hong Kong) the cost per passenger is much higher.
The London tube (not the express) and Chicago train to the airport make many stops along the way to downtown.

And heres a couple of hints - Buy a $10 Metrocard from the Metrocard machine, you get $12 on the card , so the effective cost of the Airtrain is $4. Buy an unlimited day or 7 day Metrocard, and the ride from Jamaica to wherever is amortized also. And for us lucky enough to be covered by a Transitchek or TRIP plan at work (pretax money set aside to pay for transit) the cost is even lower.

Im not making excuses for what many call a boondoggle. It would have been great if people had the foresight in the 30s , 40s and 50s (when the airports were inaugurated) to extend the subways over or under some unoccupied land into the netherlands of Queens. Since that time many things have made this difficult.

Who knows - one day maybe the N and W will extend from Astoria into LGA, and the Airtrain will be extended to a new terminal at WTC (yes I read that recently)

But for now, Ill take what I can get.

(And Jamaica isnt all that bad, even though it looks seedy. Ive served jury duty there. You're not really going outside the station area to transfer from subway to Airtrain.
And the hope is this impetus will make the area more amenable for airport business locations.)

[This message has been edited by ljp99 (edited Dec 19, 2003).]

I want to address as much of this as I can as you bring up interesting points. Your mentioning the 50 minutes via the A is a good point. At rush hour, I don't care if you have car service or a taxi; it WILL take you longer to get to the airport by car and taxi than by the A train. The A works. I don't see how the Airtrain improves upon it as you have to take the subway to Sutphin Ave, walk up a series of stairs, walk around the corner outside, and then walk up to Airtrain. For you he-men, it's not a problem. For a woman with luggage and a laptop; it is. It's also not a safe neighborhood during off hours. The A train is much easier than going the Airtrain route.

As for Robert Moses, his mass destruction of neighborhoods is a topic for another post.

A train to Manhattan would have been very expensive---no question. But they could have gotten seemless travel from Manhattan if they had done the following: link the Airtrain to Jamaica station. Then have the Airtrain travel on LIRR tracks into Penn. You would then have one train which goes into and out of Penn directly without the need to change trains, go up and down stairs, and in fact go from station to station. Agreements should have been made by the LIRR to make this possible; what a solid money-maker that could have been. If people wanted to get off at Jamaica and go off to LI, Brooklyn, or Far Rockaway, then they could do that. If people wanted to stay on the train and go into Manhattan, they can do that too. Clearly not enough forethought was done.

The man who died...talk about a preventable death. Cement blocks were placed in the cars to represent the weight load of people. Yet the cement blocks were not strapped in; so when the driver took a curve too quickly, the cement came crashing directly at him and he instantly died. To say that this is horrifying is an understatement. The same brilliant minds who created the airtrain didn't think of protecting the driver by strapping the cement tight---drivers can go too fast especially in testing.

Access to JFK via public transport has always been available prior to the Airtrain....I'm not sure why you say it was not. It's called the A train----I mentioned this in the beginning of my response. And it works; rich and poor folk alike can bypass traffic because of it. I've taken it. Airtrain does not give seemless transportation. It's a collossal waste of money as many have stated already.

Ah, but it's not cheap at all. Even ignoring the almost $2B in taxpayer money, this new train is increasing the cost of taking public transportation to the airport by $5.

Previously, you could take the A train to the airport, then transfer to a free bus. Now that free bus has been replaced by a $5 Airtrain. An Airtrain that doesn't even go to Manhattan.

Yes, it is $5.

And if you take the LIRR, you still have to transfer to the subway when you get to the city, unless your final destination is Penn Station.

d

Let's me just say this. The pro-rail groups in many parts of the world are just out-of-control. They look at Europe and believe it has to be the same around the globe.

LIH Prem mentioned HKG. My family and I have flew into or out of Cheklapkok dozens of times since it opened. Combined trips on the AEX? I think about twice. Why? To connect to many parts of the MTR (subway), it woud require 3 tranfers. And the station in Central is a long 10-minute walk (via underground walkway) to the Island line MTR trains. The "Kowloon" station is in no-man's land. In contrast, several Airbus routes take you right into Mong Kok, Tsim Sha Tsui, Central or Causeway Bay on single ride. Even if the cost of the AEX is lower, it's still not convenient.

I flew into PDX just after the MAX was extended to the airport. Granted, it was soon after 9/11, but the trains are very empty. There were a few volunteers giving out free R/T tickets, and I was very grateful for that. And while it's is a nice single-ride into city center, it's also quite a bit slower than a car/taxi ride. Maybe it's doing better now, I am not sure.

And don't even get me started with the "tram" in my home town of Houston. It has nothing to do with flying, but just another example of billions of dollars going down the drain. How many Houstonians travel between downtown and Medical Center/Astrodome every day? I don't know a single person who does even I've lived here for many years...

[This message has been edited by rkkwan (edited Dec 19, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by rkkwan (edited Dec 19, 2003).]

Lets not forget the $2.50 per person tax everybody has been paying to fly into or out of Kennedy to fund this thing too.

Some more news stories about it today:

Just hours after its high-profile debut, the AirTrain system had to be shut down by the Port Authority for two hours Wednesday night because platform doors failed to open and trapped passengers in their trains

and even more comforting:

Unsure of what to do next, Mr. Sheehan wandered over to a talkback system on the platform and pushed an information button. No one picked up. Then he pushed the emergency button. After several minutes, an operator answered.

"I explained we were in Terminal 7," Mr. Sheehan said. "We were trying to get to Howard Beach. He said, `I don't know what's going on.' "

Was another train coming?

"I don't know."

Are the shuttle buses running?

"I don't know."

After a few airport employees flagged down cabs for themselves

I read about this and just am stunned by the entire stupidity of this whole thing. Doppy brought up the extra costs for this "convenience". The A train has always worked and it is more convenient than this Airtrain if you are already in Manhattan. And it's $2.

It's still possible to get to JFK for $2, even though the Transit Authority is pushing the Port Authority's Airtrain in its subway posters and brochures. The A train to the last stop at Lefferts Blvd. (rather than the Rockaways branch) will get you a free transfer to the Q10 bus (25 minutes to JFK), the F train to the last stop at 179th St. offers a free transfer to the Q3 bus (45 minutes to JFK), and the 3 train to the last stop at New Lots Ave. gives you a transfer to the B15 bus (40 minutes to JFK). These may not be the most convenient or fastest ways to the airport, but for someone concerned about giving the Port Authority $5 for something that was free until this week, they're valid alternatives, and you don't have to worry about changing to the subway sytem in Jamaica, Howard Beach or Penn Station.

[This message has been edited by Track (edited Dec 19, 2003).]

So now New York is charging $5.00 for all passengers who get off at Howard's Beech on a 2 hour $2.00 ticket (which was $1.50 not too long ago). So the cost is now $7.00 and the free shuttle buses are gone.

I guess, I will spend $100.00 to fly a connection into JFK instead because I hate the A train and the audacity for NY to keep that system as noisy as a 100 year old system. I will not use credit cards and the $5.00 in my pocket was robbed by the passengers of the A train before I departed.

I'm not paying one dime to use the Airtran. It is not the Airport Express of Hong Kong. What it is is a short ride to stations that provide more trouble than what JFK has to offer. I don't see any free shuttle to The Conrad at any Airtran stop, therefore DEATH TO THE AIRTRAN!!

JFK AirTrain is a success already.

Factotum and Hoboken Flyer made many good points.

Analise: If you don't like the subway to AirTrain
connection, try the LIRR to AirTrain connection.

Doppy:
no state or federal taxes go toward the
funding of AirTrain.


I have commuted from Suffolk, Long Island
via LIRR and NJT to EWR rather than put up
with expensive, unreliable and uncomfortable
lurching vans.

The door to door (or door to gate) time with
new AirTrain is great if you're near any
of the 124 LIRR stations. And unlike BART
or WashDC Metro, LIRR makes an attempt at
night service so you stand a good chance
of a train to serve your return, even if
you're delayed.

I find the van services uncomfortable,
with questionable air conditioning and
sickening, lurching drivers. The train
is a much better ride. Car services
are about $100.

There's a few issues regarding ticketing
to be addressed:

Offer a one-purchase option so we can buy
a thru ticket, including both LIRR and
AirTrain. NJ Transit makes X to EWR more
expensive, and hands over the extra cash
to the Port Authority. LIRR should get a
similar deal.

There's no information about the LIRR at
JFK, and the under re-construction Jamaica
station is a sore dripping mess, without
services.

When reconstruction is finished, the need
to find and climb stairs with baggage problem
should be solved. There are elevators now,
and on opening day of AirTrain they were
up to capacity.

I'd rather wait at JFK, eat, drink, read,
type, call, and be merry, and watch the
LIRR train/track monitor than rush to Jamaica
and wait there.

Next,I can't wait for the terible AirBart
bus to be replaced by AirTrain OAK.



[This message has been edited by squid (edited Dec 20, 2003).]

World War II. This detroyed most infrastructure so that when it was "rebuilt" you didn't have to worry about right of way right etc.

I dont think so.

Probably the best (on-time, reliable, running at least every hour, on busy routings every 5-10 minutes) and largest coverage by public transportation is in Switzerland (fortunately not being bombed during wolrld-war II, except some small parts north of the river rhine that our american friends mistakenly took for germany ,,,)

The San Francisco Chronicle reported last month that this has been pushed back two years due to the state budget crisis (and I bet it's actually going to be a lot longer than two years). Story here

Of, if we only had rail service like that in the U.S. Many a time I've rushed into a train station in Switzerland to see my preferred train taking off without me because it was "on time". Fortunately, you know they'll be another one along shortly if you miss it.

in Switzerland too, most public trains are not profitable - but a majority (in this direct democracy, founded 1291, we even vote on such things like budgets etc) agrees that some public money should also go (subsidies) into public transportation infrastructure (and also in keeping fares competitiv) and not only in road-, bridge- and tunnel-buidling ... I agree with that policy (which, for once, makes me part of a majority in my country ...).