Sneaking into First Class
 

This happened on a recent UA flight of mine: A well dressed (business casual) guy was one of the last to board and seeing empty seats in C on the 777 he took one. He took a comp. glass of water and the flight took off. About 30-40 mins. into the flight the FAs came around to take breakfast orders, realized he wasn't on the list, asked him to move, which he did calmly and without complaint. I was in row 19 (front of economy) and saw this entire thing transpire through the open curtain. Turns out his actual seat was next to mine and we started chatting. He said he tries it all the time and it works about 50/50. He was very proud of a LAX-SYD flight he pulled it off. "13 hours of free business class" he said. Half of me thought he was brave and why not go for it, but the other half of me thought its dishonest and a little too much. He was a very smart and nice guy and I chatted with him the entire flight. He looked like any other biz traveler (maybe thats why it worked) he even had a Wall Street Journal. My questions for all of you are: Ever seen (or done) anything similar? What do you think of someone like this? Could this be considered stealing and therefore illegal? Could it be considered a security breach? I would love to hear any FAs views if you're out there.

The only time I've seen this (and recognized it) was on a short ORD-IND flight. Again, a business-casual man sauntered into the cabin as one of the last people to board the flight. His eyes drifted down towards the back of the plane and non-chalantly swung back to the front where the flight attendants were laughing with each other. He slowly took the F seat directly in front of mine where he remained until we arrived in IND. Granted, the FAs could have see on the list that he was not supposed to be there, and may not have made a fuss about it because it was such a short flight with no service to speak of.

IMO, there's no other way to see this than dishonest. It's taking advantage of a service/benefit for which you have not surrendered appropriate payment; i.e. it's stealing.

I jokingly asked once while boarding an AA SNA-LAS flight. FC was empty, and there were, maybe, 10 pax in coach. All I got was a dirty look...

I'm really surprised that someone could get away with this on a long flight like LAX-SYD. Was he given any meals? Did he perhaps deprive someone who was legitimately in business class of their meal choice? Perhaps he was BSing about his success rate.

By the way, sometime within the last year, there was a news item reporting that former California governor Pete Wilson tried sneaking into a higher class than paid on a flight and was asked to move by the FA.

Kathy

Yes, I'm also surprised he was able to get away with it on a LAX-SYD flight. UA F/As do actually go through the pax manifest when taking meal orders in the premium cabins to ensure that 1Ks have first choice in meals.

I'm surprised if he got away with it too. I suppose its possible that it was an empty flight and the FAs just let it slide. He seemed like a pretty honest guy, but then again I only knew him for less than 4 hours. Maybe he was the Governor's son http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/wink.gif
On the matter of stealing, purely for argument's sake: is it really theft if he's not taking anything from anyone? I mean if he's the last one on the plane then he's not in someone else's seat. The meals aren't going to be eaten anyways if there are extras. I suppose he is stealing any beverages he drinks, but on an intl. flight that doesn't make any difference.

dishonest..yes

If I was the FA I would have marked his file so he was watched more closely

I once met a person who always attempted to sit in Business on an Economy ticket.

They would sit in the Business class seat and fall asleep straight away and place a DND sticker on the seat. If they were woken they would state that they had aquired some aliment and tell the FA that another FA sent them up to sit in the seat.

The person said that it worked "most of the time"! I dont know how but I suppose most FA's could not be bothered chasing up other FA's to confirm the move.

This is clearly NOT stealing, and though it is sneaky and maybe a little dishonest, he is breaking no laws. Also, the FA's have a responsibility to confirm that passengers are in the correct class seat, and if they fail to do that, they are at fault as well as the airline. In this era of heightened security, it unnerves me that he succeeds 50% of the time.

Having said that, this guy seems to try hard to seem discreet and business-like, and I imagine there are business class or first class pax who appreciate simply being surrounded by the likes of him rather than people like Diana Ross or that REM guy or Woody Harrelson. And I'm sure he washed himself, as well. http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...orum/smile.gif

It's not stealing? It's taking something that has a price on it (miles, money or certs) for which you did not pay - that's stealing. We've had other threads about this in the past where on some airlines FAs get out the charge card machine and tell the person to either pay up or move back. In all cases reported here, the person quickly moved back. If you were caught stealing a first or business class seat and you did not move back, I would certainly think the crew could have you arrested for theft (among other things) upon landing.

About one year ago I was sitting with another 3 people on FRA-STR (very short flight) in C-class. The doors were already closed when a LH FA came and asked to show the boarding passes. One person had to move to Y-class afterwards ...

I expect that the staff does check if the passengers are sitting in the correct class (airline, train). If the staff close their eyes, will they do so also on other occasions (indifferent service?, security?)!?

The operative word here seems to be "businessman". Who could be surprised at this lack of ethical behavior in the current climate? Probably a republican, as well.

I've already stated I believe that it's dishonest, but I don't believe that it constitutes stealing except if they were to detach the seat from the plane AND take it with them! http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/wink.gif

As a separate matter, if you were asked by an FA to move back and you refused, you probably could be arrested but not for theft, for reckless behavior or disturbing the peace or disorderly conduct or something like that.

You're not really reasoning very clearly, nor do you establish any kind of precedent where courts have held that this practice is stealing. Have there been such cases? I'd truly like to hear what the case law is.

Simply saying, "is too stealing" is not good enough to persuade me, sorry!

One can steal a service as well as steal a tangible product. When one buys a first-class ticket, one is not buying a leather seat which he/she can take home now! http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/wink.gif

By sitting in a seat for which you have not paid, you are in fact stealing first-class service.

I don't have time to look up case law for you, perhaps some of the lawyers here could comment, but it's called theft of service and it's just as unlawful and criminal as theft of a tangible item (think about cases that have been successfully prosecuted for theft of cable transission services). Theft of service is when one knowingly secures the performance of a service by deception or threat. If you were caught stealing a F seat and did not move back, you could also be charged with interfering with a flight crew, a federal offense.

If you're still not sure there's such a thing as theft of service, next time you get a massage or a haircut or maybe have a hygenist clean your teeth, try walking out without paying and see what comes of it. Of course, keep in mind that a first class seat costs far more than these items - likely moves you into the grand theft category - so whatever happens is likely to not be as severe.

Well, yes, of course there is such a thing as theft of service, so, I guess this is technically what he is doing, but if I was in business class, I don't think I would say anything unless he stank or had a cell phone http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...orum/smile.gif

While we're still in a reprimanding mood, somebody tell those riders who sneak into the first class cabins on the TGV... http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/wink.gif Actually, this happened once, in Morocco - I was in first class on the train from Casablanca to Marrakech, and a party of three men got in the cabin with me - didn't mind at all, and then the conductor came around and sent them back to the cattle cars - I actually felt bad for them http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...orum/frown.gif

How are you so sure that a guy with this set of ethics was telling the truth here?

I flew STL-LAS a couple months ago and a mother and son duo tried to pull this.

I was flying in F. They boarded when their group was called, and were directly behind me as we entered the aircraft. I took my seat, the last F seat in the cabin, then the the mother told her son to quickly slip into the seats across the aisle from me.

They got preflight drinks, but once the FA got the manifest, she must have realized something was wrong, because there were only two pax assigned to the F cabin. She asked to see the scamsters' boarding passes; they claimed they didn't know there was assigned seating (they knew enough to read their group numbers, but they couldn't find seat assignments? I don't think so. Besides, why wouldn't have all those 50 people who boarded ahead of them taken the big seats up front?).

Anyway, I'm relatively young, so I don't know if they thought I was scamming a seat and they'd jump on the train, or what. But, they were sent back to their assigned seats.

d

One time a person was already sitting in my assigned F seat. I showed him my boarding pass for the seat he was in, and asked him to check his (thinking merely that he was in the wrong F seat). He said "oh well," then got up and walked back to the coach cabin. He was clearly an amateur at this (in that he didn't wait until the end of boarding), and a couple of FA's that overheard this started laughing quietly.

I think the man's behavior was absolutely reprehensible. Alas, ~20 years ago, I did (more or less) the same thing myself, though mostly innocently.

I was flying lug(Lugano)-zrh-bos on SR, and had no intention of sitting anywhere but my assigned seat in the back. The FA at the door of the zrh-bos flight asked for my boarding pass, and I unknowingly (really!)fished out the lug-zrh bp, which had the seat number (8B) in really big type, and the flight number and city pair in really small type. The FA smiled and pointed me to 8B, which I occupied for the flight.

Now, I admit that I immeditely realized my mistake. And I am sure that all, or most, or several, of you would have Done The Right Thing and gone back to 47H or wherever. Moreover, I would strongly discourage any of you from trying this, and I would be brokenhearted if I thought that even one of you would be corrupted by the idea.

A slightly modified version of the "nobody got hurt" defense doesn't change the fact that he is availing himself of something to which he :

A) was not invited to
B) has not paid for the privilege

If he had paid for FC, been upgraded by the airline, used miles or been invited up by the FA, he has a right to be there. Otherwise he doesn't.

Yes, that FC seat will fly to the destination too, but he hasn't earned the right for his butt to be in it.

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"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own."

For those who do not think this is stealing, I would like to know your opinion of sneaking into coach without a ticket.

If the offending passenger eats a first-class meal, or avails himself of free booze, then he most certainly is taking something (physical) he didn't pay for. Heck, you could extend this to things like using the extra entertainment channels, the hot towels or the extra service from the FAs.

Even if he doesn't eat or drink... if you steal cable TV but never watch it, or if you pirate software but never install it, try arguing in court you're not stealing.

It's very hard for me to see a grey area here.

Just curious,

Would those who view this as stealing consider it theft to walk down front at an Montreal Expos game when you have nose-bleed seats? (Expos stadium is usually near empty.) Of course, many of you would never attend the game in the first place but that is not the point.

I believe the principle is the same. Should someone shout "thief!!!?"

I would not do it because first class is a take-it-or-leave-it proposition for me - miles are more important. However, I think most of you would have a double standard in regards to my example.
"Oh c'mon, there's empty seats down there."

Thanks everyone for a very interesting discussion so far. It seems like this is a little more common than I thought, as so many of you had had similar experiences (thanks to wideman for your honesty, good story). I would be interested to hear what you think of this from a security standpoint. In the post 9/11 world could this guy be considered a security risk and therefore get into serious trouble?

At a local bar, there is FREE Bingo a couple of nites a week for prizes of a household nature, bar tabs, brunches and tickets.
Only ONE card per player permitted or you forfeit any win.

Yet, you will see folks playing two cards!

Is that stealing?

Anyone who wants to be closer to the Montreal Expos deserves his fate. http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/wink.gif

Seriously, I often try to move to a better seat at baseball games that aren't too crowded. In fact I joke about this regarding the White Sox, whose slogan should be, "If you find yourself in someone else's seat, move to a better one!"

But it's hardly the same as moving from Y to F. It's more like moving from row 28 in Y to row 24 in Y. Wherever you are in Y it's pretty much the same product and service provided (although I'm sure someone will argue this), just as in most ballparks it's the same product whether you're in the 10th row of the upper deck or the first. You don't get better food, free beer or improved service by switching seats. And although many parks now have club seating, someone is usually checking your ticket before you can sit there.

Absolutely! If this guy is already intent on committing a crime (i.e. theft of services) who knows what else he may be up too.



[This message has been edited by ORDguy (edited 08-12-2002).]

http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...um/biggrin.gif

First off it's not a question of "viewing" it as stealing. It is stealing. Airlines are not selling seats, they are selling transportation with different levels of service and comfort that cost different prices. Take that which you did not pay for and you are stealing. If moving into first is not stealing, then neither is simply walking on the plane into coach without having paid.

The sporting event is the same as are concerts and plays. If I pay for $10 standing room only at the back of the theater and run up and take the $400 box seats, I'm stealing. Most places I go to watch games, concerts and theater productions do seem to have paid staff making sure this doesn't happen though.

On the flip side, I have been to empty theaters and stadiums where the staff has invited people to come closer for the benefit of the players and actors, I presume. This would be the equivalent of an operational upgrade, which would not be any sort of theft.

If you want to get a better seat at an Expos game, you could always ask the other person there to switch seats.

"The Expos win... The Expos win... And the fan is going wild!!!!!!!!"

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"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own."

that goes for the Cubs, as well...

Not sure at all! That's why I made the comment that he might have been BSing.

Kathy

Different story there, anonplz. There are tons of people at Cubs games.

Now exactly WHY, is debatable. Of course, the same can be said of my beloved Fenway Park.

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"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own."

Surely you are not implying that the likes of the Kennedy's are the most "upright and honest"??

There are corrupt politicians on both sides of the aisle ... and I'm sure the F 'sneaks' come in both flavors.

[open window] Credibility [/close window]



[This message has been edited by Analise (edited 08-13-2002).]

Are you actually bothering to respond to such a worthless comment? Surely it couldn't have been serious.

d

Give JWH a break. http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/wink.gif IIRC, this is his first non-"Bush-ism" post. http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...m/thumbsup.gif

I did something simular once. I was on a trans-con 763 3-class. I was confirmed in C class and was the last one on the plane. I originally had a window and there was already a pax in the aisle so took 5C (my favorite seat). I began to read and noticed I was being ignored for the first hour of the flight, I got up and went to galley and told them I had moved. The FA's just laughed, and wondered who I was. Turns out they counted a deadheading FA as a pax and thought I had sneaked in and were arguing whom was going to confront me. So I find it hard that some can do this from LAX-SYD without being caught.

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