True. I'm patiently awaiting his first travel-related post-- but I'm already in my 30's so I don't know if I'll be around when it happens.

And, very http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...um/biggrin.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...um/biggrin.gif Analise!

[This message has been edited by JonNYC (edited 08-13-2002).]

http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/wink.gif

I've seen it tried, but always an alert FA caught the deception. More so now than ever. We suffered a delay coming out of Madrid when the FAs counted and recounted.

I call it a theft. Theft of service is still theft. Enron anyone?

IMHO, this is definitely a no blood no foul issue. if he can stay up there more power too him. If he gets booted, he is the one with a red face.. other than that.. who really cares..

Is it theft, technically my guess is yes.. but I can bet that each of us in here has technically stolen something willfully and knowingly at some point (have you ever made a personal phone call from work on work time, the baseball game is a great example... I am so guilty a thousand times over on that one.. I'm always sneaking down to the lower boxes).. for most people it is of immaterial consequence and no one cares or would ever want to prosecute..

As long as he obeyed crews instructions.. its not a big deal. As for the comment about if he would steal a F seat what else might he do in this post 911 era.. come on.. now really... If he was a terroist he would buy a seat not try to steal one.. I wish I knew how to put those little icons up with the eyes rolling

what he said. Oh and to do the rolleyes thing just type the word rolleyes with a colon at the beginning and at the end like so: http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...m/rolleyes.gif



[This message has been edited by g_leyser (edited 08-15-2002).]

Let us take another example.

All the posters to this thread are standing in a common line at the airport, waiting to be served.

I come along, dressed in my smart business attire, and make polite small talk as I ease my way into the line, oh, say, 2 or 3 people from the head of said line.

Is what I have done stealing? None of us pays for the ‘service’ of standing in line; none of us has rented the floorspace on which we’re standing, etc. etc. I have not taken anything that anyone else has paid for.

But, will the 2 or 3 people ahead of me in line say, “more power to you!” What about the 15 or so people behind? What if it were possible for me to say (as it might be) that my action will add negligibly to the time any of the people behind me spend additionally in line, so that I haven’t really hurt anyone, at least not to any significant degree?

The answer, as we all know, is that whether I butt ahead in line or grab a business class seat I didn’t pay for, this may not ‘seem’ like stealing, but I am threatening to destroy a system by which everyone, including myself, benefits. Whereas unlike the system I've violated, my action benefits me, and me alone, or rather, it benefits me alone ONLY if I am the only one, or at least one of only a few, who does it. My benefit from butting in or grabbing a business class seat comes only if everyone else is complying, or in other words, I benefit at the expense of everyone else who complies. If, on the other hand, we all take the so-called ‘power’ available to us and as a mob rush the airline desk, or the business class section, then on average, we will all of us be more poorly served, and thus have less power, than if we comply by the seemingly oppressive rules of queues and seat assignments.

The system of ethics and fairness benefits us precisely because it keeps us from doing what we might really want to do. It also benefits us precisely because the rules for it are internalized, ethical ones, as opposed to externally imposed ones. As a general rule, airliners are as efficient, and as secure as they are not because, or at least not solely because, there are flight attendants and a pair of pilots on board to enforce rules. The relative numbers of staff to passengers precludes the ability of staff to physically compel people to follow rules. Just as the relative number of police to public precludes the former’s ability to physically constrain the public from, say, murdering each other.

And as for hijackers, they are also following rules. However, in their case, they are the ones who are making up the rules, rules that benefit them alone. Just like I would be the one making up unilaterally applicable rules if I jump into line, or grab an airline seat. This is neither an efficient nor a secure way to allow people to conduct themselves, no matter how ‘empowering’ it might seem to them at the time.

In no case do I want to be traveling with any of hijacker, line-jumper, or seat-grabber, although I concede that if it came down to the lesser of three evils, I’d probably pick the second two over the first. But increasingly, I think you’ll find that post 9-11, people will be taking a different view of the behaviour of the other two. No matter how business-like and polite the offender (and weren’t Mohammed Etta and his buddies wearing business suits? And I’m sure they were really polite, right up until the time the plane struck the tower.)


[This message has been edited by simpleflyer (edited 08-22-2002).]

What do you mean, you would have "marked his file?"

Shades of a Seinfeld episode.

http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/wink.gif

I read all this with interest. if you see someone in a seat they do not belong to you should report it. Why - because firstly the cabin crew are not doing their job with possible catastrophic results and secondly because the airlines have (supposedly) strict safety rules. The fact that the smartly dressed Enron Finance executive queued up in the Economy line and then chose to sit in the F or C class means that there is one checked in pax missing from Y class and accordingly his bags should be offloaded and there is also an additional pax in F or C class who should not be there , so who is he and what is he doing there and how did he get there ? One would think in the shades of 911 that everyone should have an interest in their and others' security. I would say that if you tried this out on CX or SQ or El Al you would soon be told where to go. Indeed they call out the pax names on the intercon and if no pax appears in the correct seat the bags are offloaded.
As for the legal aspect in British law, obtaining services by deception means the person has knowingly with guilty mind obtained those services , so having queued up in the Y class checkin queue and holding a Y class seat numbered boarding pass, not having been allowed into the Business class lounge and not being allowed Priority boarding at the gate to the aircraft would tend to signify that anyone knowingly availing himself of services he has not paid for is committing a criminal offence and civilly is guilty of trespass.

Funny to come across this thread. I was on IAH-SFO last night CO First in 2E and in front of me a woman comes in and takes 1E. The FA takes her coat, and she the lady is *****ing about not being able to check her carryon, the FA offers help yet the lady says no. She asks for two Gin Tonics, and is sitting there for quite a while. I would say she was the fifth person on board. Well a couple comes up and the wife is in 1E. So the lady does not move until the FA comes. The lady cannot find her BP.. After arguing she finds it, and she is way in back. So she grabs her drinks and gets up to take another seat in F!!! She is guided out, and finds a seat in back. I was suprised that she resisted. My only complaint was the couple in 1E and F were very snobby, and spent most of the fligh making fun of the lady and making comments which is very un called for...

Some people will do anything for a gin and tonic http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...orum/smile.gif

I agree that intentionally taking a seat in a higher class of service is stealing. If you accidentally take a seat in a higher class, I do not believe that is stealing, unless you become aware it was accidental, then you are back to stealing again.

Seats while traveling comparison to seats at a sporting event. A bit different, I think.

On a flight, most would agree it is ok to move around within in the cabin, just not to a seat in a cabin with a higher level of service. At a sporting event, most of the seats are general admisson and usually have no distinguishing barriers within the general admission sections. Sometimes there are club levels or suites, but most people know you can't move to those seats if you have a general admission ticket. I believe that as long as I remain in general admission seats, I do not see any problem moving if nobody objects and I am not displacing anyone. At the sporting events I attend, all general admission seats are the same price, so only priority is the difference in seat assignments - just like in coach(elites get the exit rows and more forward seats). Since all general admission seats have the same level of service(at least that I have been too), the only difference is the view - just like a window or isle in coach class.

So I justify that stealing a better view in general admission sport arenas is no different than stealing a view in coach class.


[This message has been edited by Aubie (edited 08-25-2002).]

Back in the early nineties a relative "El Bandido Zorro" did it a few times. A West Coast lawyer he knew told him that he always went up to F after the meal service when the lights were switched off. If there were free seats, he approached the FA in charge, said he had hurt his back, offered a $50 bill, and asked if he could stay for "a couple of hours", until he felt better. He claimed it worked most of the time, with LH and AA.

My relative then tried it maybe 10 times. On LH it never worked, but on AA it worked twice, so he said. Once the greedy FA asked for $100, which he gave her. Once he did it on IB, but the entire F Cabin was empty (747-200 on top),no FA anywhere to be seen. He just took a seat, and was woken up 2 hours before arrival with a breakfast tray.

The problem, he said, is usually that you have a problem with the hand luggage which is still in the overhead locker over 47D, and you have to wait until the entire plane has emptied to retrieve it.

Now, regarding ethics, he did not eat or drink F food, and he paid - that the FA did not properly book the extra money, and did not give him a receipt is his/her business, even though my relative could/should have assumed so.

"Edited on legal advice"

[This message has been edited by Zorro (edited 09-05-2002).]

Ladies and Gentlemen of the E-Jury
the defendant El Bandido Zorro aka Econo Misto stands before you by his own admission
the defendant admits that he knowingly conspired with Granny Flyer a flight attendant of American Airlines to defraud the said airline of payment for services namely: an inflight upgrade from Herd class to First class
that he knowingly then paid funds in the sum of US$ 100 to the said Granny Flyer in full knowledge that this sum was a bribe for Granny Flyer not to perform her paid duties with that said airline and by stating dishonestly that he had injured his back
the defendant subsequently admits he availed himself of the illegally obtained cabin services and futhermore boasts of two other similar sets of offenses, one on American Airlines, one on Ibreria and that he also admits to failed attempts to obtain services by deception on Lufthansa
The defendant will tell you by way of mitigation that he did not avail himself of food and drink in the illegally obtained F class seats he occupied three times on three different occasions and that he paid money to the flight attendants but as we can see such payment was bribe money and the defendant knew full well , having conspired with Granny Flyer and AN Other that the actual inflight upgrade cost was multiples in excess of the admitted bribe amount
The defendant might also state that he subsequently found his hand luggage had been rifled during his absence from his paid seat number 47D and that he suspected Granny Flyer , a person of obvious ill repute, of this offense, that he is a frequent flyer (or was until he was banned) of the LH Senator and Iberia frequent flyer clubs, two airlines that he conspired to cheat
I seek severe punishment for this repeat offender ladies and gentlemen of the jury in that he be trampled by the Herd and forced to marry Granny Flyer

Juror #1 votes Guilty as charged Your Honor!

Your Honor, Ladies and Gentlemen of the E-Jury:

As counsel for the defendant El Bandido Zorro I respectfully request summary dismissal of this patently frivolous lawsuit on the following grounds:

1. Expiration of the satute of limitations

2. Jurisdiction. The alleged crime on IB took place outside the jurisdiction of this court since there is no independent thread for IB on FT. The alleged crime on AA took place before Internet time. All civilised nations have honored the principle of nulla poena sine lege.

Should the venerable court decide to proceed with the action, I apply to dismiss on the grounds of lack of evidence. There exists no evidence other than hearsay. Our team has researched the facts and has established that

· My client has a long history of back pain, as evidenced by numerous medical certificates, among them from Doctor C. Mepagas Certifico from the internationally recognised Centro de Salud Municipal de Villariba de Conejos, Provincia de Caceres, Extremadura, Spain. It is therefore slanderous to claim that my client stated dishonestly that his back hurts. Moreover, as evidenced by said medical certificate, the pain increases as a function of the proximity to coach/tourist class seats.

· As evidenced in Affidavit IIc 1) attached, sworn by my client, on the flight AA 3967 from Portland to Barcelona on the Feb. 29, 1991 he sat in Seat 46E until 1h 45 after take off, when his back pain increased considerably. He pressed the Call Button overhead in order to request a glass of water to take with his medication. After 35 minutes no response came from the flight attendants, and he rose (under considerable pain, I might add) to proceed to the galley and obtain some liquid for his medication. He found three (3) flight attendants, one of which was busy applying her lipstick, the other two in heated disussion about the relative merits of the shopping facilities in Barcelona and Paris. Proceeding further to the washrooms in the hope of procuring some water, he found that one restroom wasa blocked with the excess luggage of the crew, and the other one had 8 adults and three minors waiting.

The backpain having increased on account of the movement required (which prompt attention by the crew could have alleviated) my client weighed the consequences of crossing the dividing curtain into Business Class. I might add that this decision was not taken lightly and was solely prompted by the concern for his health. Upon finding that the entire cabin had been darkened he proceeded in the direction of a small ray of light emanating from behind a further curtain, which he later found out belonged to the First Class Cabin.

Again considering the potential negative consequences of crossing a further threshold, he stumbled into the F Cabin where Granny Flyer received him and, being clearly preoccupied by his condition ordered him to sit down. The tone of her voice indicated that she was fully in command of the cabin, and was authorized to act in such fashion by the Captain. May I remind you,Your Honor, esteemed E-Jury, that according to the Warsaw Convention of 1948, Art 38, Para II, Subsection c, the instructions of the Captain of an aircraft have to be obeyed at all times.

Clearly, given his experience on the plane so far, my client was convinced that a glass of water for his medicine was not likely to be given easily by the crew. He therefore decided to offer some donation to the Single Female Over 55 Flight Attendant Retirement Fund in order to procure an alleviation to his ailment. For this purpose he had taken out US$ 50 from the College Fund of his eldest daughter, Mari Pili del Zorro. He was saddened and disturbed by Granny Fliers insistence on $ 100, but in light of his reduced faculties, and in gratitude for a few hours in Seat 2C he decided not to press charges.

Should the Court decide not to dismiss charges on the above grounds, I respectfully request dismissal on the grounds of negligible value.

Even if my client is judged to have obtained payment for services fraudulently, these services have no value after the closing of the doors and completion of boarding. No body offered to pay money or miles for an upgrade at the time of the alleged incident, neither did the Airline offer these seats in exchange for any monetary consideration. Indeed, my client suspects that the First Class Seat was offered to him in order to deflect possible lawsuits for breach of contract caused by the lack of service and care due to passengers with a medical condition in coach.


Finally, should the court decide to find my client guilty, I must consider the propsed punishment, marriage to Granny Flyer, as unnecessary harsh and cruel. Since a similar incident is alleged to have involved my client on Flight 3308, with Chief Purser Señorita. T. Tagrande (aged 21), Flight 4562 with Chief Purser Srta. Q. Lore Dondo (aged 22), and Flight 5589 with Chief Purser P. Erna Larga, I request that my client shall be married to either of these young ladies under the law of the Central District of Isfahan, Isl. Rep. of Iran, which provides for temporary marriage licences for periods not exceeding 12 hours. My client has offered to pay for the cost of accomodation during the wedding night out of his own Frequent Flier/Hotel Reward Programs.

I rest my case, Your Honor

Hey wait, what about audiatur et altera pars ? In any case Unanimity is required or retrial

As a flight attendant, I do see it happen on occasion, not too often though. Most people do move to their assigned seats without complaint. Of course, there are a few who try to argue their way. Many of you brought up good points about "is it stealing?", I would have to say it is. I don't think, either before or after 9/11, that this person would neccessarily be a threat. Like I said, most people just get up and move to their assigned seats. No, sitting there may not be against the law. But refusing to comply with crew member instructions is. If it were to escalate authorities would be involved when the aircraft reached the gate. Obviously, it's in everyone's best interest to not do that, most people would just be removed for not complying, provided the plane as not taken off. The story this guy claims seems hardly believable (LAX-SYD) We do notice the count and I cannot think of any of my co-workers who would allow it. Those who do... shame on them. Their the reason people think they can and should get away with it.

This Juror votes...Hang Them....On a HNL-SFO a few years ago....My Dad was flying stand by. He was the last one on. The Gate told him to take any seat! So he sat in FC...
ZZ
"Anyone try a $50 in the ticket jacket at the gate?" I bet the Airlines test their employees this way!

As a flight attendant I have had it happen more than a few times since I work primarily transcons. The first time a woman plops her self down during the first beverage service, I ask if I can help her, she says "get me a bloody mary", I say "get me your boarding pass" she says "I can't find it", I get the manifest and ask her name, now she knows she's busted and gets all defensive, starts spewing the "I work for Gillette and do you know how much money my company spends on this airline", I replied "I have been shaving since I was 16 and never recieved a free razor so either you can give me your credit card, move back to your seat or the captain will have the authorities at the gate to meet you." She didn't like that and wanted my name, I wrote down my name, supervisors name, phone number, the number for consumer affairs and told her to have at it. She picked up all her crap in a huff and moved back to coach, the rest of first class gave her an ovation as she left which really pissed her off.

One other time that stands out was during boarding on a 767, myself and another flight attendant were standing behind the bulkhead seperating biz from the lav and heard this lady say "let's just sit here, they'll never know", right away the other girl starts to head out to nab them, I grab her and tell her it's time to have a little fun, we go out of our way to show them biz service, the predepartures, menus and how the best part of the flight is the warm cookies and milk before landing, they are practically salivating at this point. Finally the door closes and we go get our copy of the manifest and make a big prodction of doing the head count, we do it about 3 times while pointing while we count heads, we ask a couple of the people to see their boarding passes and then head to the ploppers, when they show us their boarding passes we tell them "Oh, these are not your seats, you are in the back of the plane, please take your bags with you." Once again the real biz folks got a howl out of it and made it a fun flight for all of us.

So beware if you are on one of my flights, I always count in premium cabins, LOL.

Mike-BOS

Good post, Mike. Hang around and tell more good stories.

Wow! This has really been an interesting thread. I've especially enjoyed Zorro's mock trial. (Where's Johnny Cochran when you need him?). Reading everyone's feedback its starting to sound more and more like this guy was lying to me. Special thanks to mikea3xx and AAORD for the insider feedback.
Here's another question: is it possible that the FAs on this guy's alleged LAX-SYD flight did in fact know that he was not supposed to be there, but turned a blind eye? Can someone "sweet talk" their way into a premium cabin? For example, I have personally had GAs "forget" to take paper upgrade certificates, as have many people on FT from what I've read on other threads. Could the same type of thing happen with FAs?What are other's experiences?
Thanks for the great thread so far!!!

Zorro, I cannot stop laughing form your mock trial. You put up such an awesome defence! http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...um/biggrin.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...um/biggrin.gif

I have often experienced a variation on this sort of theft. The people who have coach tickets who stow their baggage in the overheads in the higher class of service. Twice I've gotten on flights in the past 2 weeks and all the bin space above my seat was full. All! In my best loud voice I said, 'there is no room for my carry on bag.'

I think I ran into Mike out of BOS as the FA sorted out baggage and pax. He announced that anyone leaving baggage in the forward rows would have to come forward to claim it or it would be removed from the airplane!

One man came forward and claimed 3 bags from overhead bins. 3!

Thanks to FA's who protect their pax.

http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...um/biggrin.gif that's hilarious (did you REALLY say that??)

I would not be surprised if some FA's turn their backs to it.... I have flown with some people who just do not have a backbones, contradicting what I said before about me not knowing anyone who would allow it, unfortunately, I guess I do. I have flown with other FA's that come up to me when I work first class and ask me if a passenger can sit in FC if seats are available. "Hello!, NO!" Why would they even lead this person to believe there might be a possibility! Tell them "NO" from the get go! I firmly believe that first class is just that, FIRST CLASS. I don't always have "first class" people sitting up there, but I do my best, with what is available to me, to make it first class. Sad to say, some may not appreciate it, but that will not detour me from doing what I can to make it that way. This does not include just the service, but keeping those people out of those seats and their bags out of those bins for which they do not belong! And asking such questions when they board, "if seats are available, can I just take one?" Or just taking a seat there when you are not ticketed is definitely not "first class".

At $10,000 to $15,000 for trans-pacific first class, well, if I ever actually pay for it (with cash, not miles), I'll be the one dragging a sleeper seat up the jetway! http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...orum/smile.gif



------------------
preez mine da pratform gahp.

Before I learned the upgrade game and became an Elite, a friend of mine, said he got upgrades to First class, often. That was when there was a REAL First Class Service!
I asked how this happened. He laughingly stated he didn't know. But he was a tall dark Italian MR. AMERICA from New York kind of stud. I never asked if this happened when he traveled with his wife and 2 wild children. But some how I doubt it, since the wife never confirmed the FC treatment.

I always suspected, that the FA's take care of their friends if they can.

What about going to the toilets in First ?

I recently flew a 14 hour flight in coach. At the end of the flight, as always, everyone gets up and goes to the restrooms, and so do I.

Seeing that half a dozen people were already waiting in line before each toilet, I decided to go through the curtains to the restrooms in First, as I sometimes do in these cases, and proceeded to wait in front as it was occupied, but noone else was waiting.

I was quickly sent off by an FA who told me that someone was actually waiting to go, and that I didn't belong here.

So, was I wrong ? Is going to the toilets in First also considered stealing ?

I know I might be in the minority here, but although I respect money and status other people have, I unfortunately do not consider that having to wait 20 minutes to go to the restrooms is normal, when people in First don't have to.

[This message has been edited by yann (edited 09-13-2002).]

For males, an empty water bottle works fine, especially if you're discrete. Women can also learn to do this.

http://www.restrooms.org/standing.html

I sure wish you would add a winking smilie to this post wherever you put it!

And if you're really serious, I have to ask: just how discreet (not "discrete") can one be on an airplane, for #@!'s sake! I mean, I've no objection whatever to peeing into a bottle or other container (and have done so when the necessity occurred) but it MUST be in private!

Oops -- looks like we've gone off topic here!

Kathy http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...orum/smile.gif

I have to admit that I get cranky when I am seated in F and need to use the restroom and everytime I get up, someone from coach beats me to it. I wish there was nice way to say, " please let me go first". FA are more likely to let me linger at the F galley until the lav opens up again though.

lala

This toilet issue has been discussed plenty. Personally, I think that part of what you are getting with a FC seat is priority access to the bathrooms.

Some say that using the bathroom is a "necessary" fuction, hence it should be available to anyone. I wouldn't presume to walk into an airline club lounge if I weren't a member and use their bathrooms, just because it's a necessary bodily function. In the airport, as in the air, there are public bathrooms or coach bathrooms.

After hundreds of posts though, I don't think either side of the issue has ever convinced the other.

d

I've not had anyone snake my seat in this manner, but I have sat next to people who've tried to pull this, usually in domestic F.
Sometimes during the pre-departure service the F/As will go around and check people's boarding passes for whatever reason. They get to my row and I cheerfully hold it up/hand it over and my seat opponent will glare at me because they know the jig is up and steam back to 23E where they belong.

JD

What airline does this? I've never seen that before.

I've never seen a pre-departure boarding pass check unless there was a specific problem like someone already in someone else's seat, but they usually have a seating chart with names for taking meal orders. If someone is in a seat that should be vacant, they often ask to see a boarding pass

Switched within the same cabin to be next to someone? Fine. What would you like to eat?

Ought to be in a different cabin? Please return to your assigned seat, sir/ma'am.

My wife was flying my 91yo FIL to our house to stay and he had an F ticket. NW let her move up front, which I appreciatied.

Off topic because she did not "sneak" but I wanted to mention it. Thanks NW!

On a NWA flight MSP-DTW last year I was the last passenger aboard and found an older businessman type sitting in my assigned First Class seat. I pointed it out to the FA who asked him for his boarding pass but when he said it was buried in his bag in the overhead bin, she took his word for it and sent me packing to any empty seat in coach.

After the beverage service, I approached the lead FA who went up to the gentleman again and made him dig out the boarding pass which unsurprisingly showed him as being in a seat in coach. Shockingly enough though, he was allowed to remain in First Class and I continued to be banished to steerage.

Of course on a short hop like that it wasn't a big deal comfortwise (especially since I got a row to myself at the back) but the principle that they would take his lying word over mine simply because he was a white middle-aged businessman in a suit and I was a younger brown dishevelled type fresh off a redeye irked me.

NWA apologized profusely for the event and gave me a handful of miles as compensation, so all's well that ends well. However, keep in mind that appearances are the key to pulling this kinda stunt off succesfully.

That's appalling. I would have gone freaking ballistic!! How did you stay calm?


[This message has been edited by RevvedUp (edited 07-19-2003).]

What was my option? As a brown skinned young male if I so much as let out a peep in opposition of a FA, I get myself thrown off the plane if I'm lucky and sent to jail if I'm not. Gotta learn to deal with it.

The reason we have crooked politicians on both sides is the reason we have an "economy class". If they were gone, we'd all be in First Class. That's the truth.

Vote for Dean to at least change Bush.