That I believe is sadly true these days, especially in the U.S. http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...orum/frown.gif

I still think that in the future if this were to happen to you that you just say to the FA in a friendly, calm voice, "I would be happy to show you my eticket /itinerary/documentation to prove my assigned seat/cabin. I'm sure it might be a misunderstanding or computer glitch, but I don't mind waiting as I doubt the boarding pass could be buried too deep as he just got on?" Then looking at the seat stealer "I'm sure you won't mind helping to clear this up, it would only take a minute and I am sure that we can get it all figured out. You know, computer glitches do happen" http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/wink.gif


Being as calm as you were I am sure that you are also aware that attitude is everything especially in a case like that and you really did handle yourself extremely well http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...m/thumbsup.gif.

What really really bothers me is that you had a confirmed F seat. Whether it is easier to go to the back or not, you paid for the seat and no one should be able to take that from you. It's truly disgusting that this happened.

I'm a white guy and often have wondered how terrible it must be, especially in the U.S. to fly as a non-white since 9/11 and then have a problem that needs to be dealt with. Sorry to hear about your story but glad to hear that NW came through. Any mention of what might happen to the FA in this case?

Did you not have a boarding pass?

That is not cool what they did to you. Even if his boarding pass was hassle to take out, the FA's could of asked for a form of identification and match it with the manifest.

If I held an airline generated boarding pass with a first class seat, I wouldn't have simply been led back to coach. I would ask the lead flight attendent to check with the gate staff to identify the name of the passenger in the disputed seat. I'd do this even if they were trying to shut the door! That should very quickly clear up the confusion.

Yes, I had a boarding pass with the seat assignment but the FA was of the opinion that because I had boarded so late they had released my seat to the other guy. This of course was untrue because I had been at the gate for a while being subject to the usual secondary screening, otherwise I would likely have boarded soon after the rest of the First Class passengers.

Again, when the FA said "ok, go take an empty seat in coach - we have to leave now" there is no room for argument, whether or not you are in the right. You have to comply with a crewmember instructions or else you wind up in trouble. Such is the reality.

I've had other similar incidents too (including the now infamous run-in with Captain Daniel Broderdorf of Continental and it's follow up), all of which contributed to my final decision to relocate to a country that does not condone such institutional discrimination under the guise of security.

I've had my boarding pass checked a number of times in AA F as I board. I'm a 23-year-old student who dresses fairly casually and doesn't really look the First Class part, so it's never particularly surprised me, though it does bug me a little. They've always been quite professional about it, though, doing it under the guise of helping me find my seat.

This is such a BS story. Give mw a break. There is no way anything could be done to you. What is this BS about the color of your skin and you had no choice or what? you would be dragged and whipped or something? What do you think security would do in front of all the witnesses? The airline, the employee could face such a huge lawsuit for anything that would resemble even a minor appearance of discrimination. Contractually you were in the right, so please don't BS us here that the white man won again. That freaking plane is not moving till I either get my seat for which I paid for, or if there was some kind of computer glitch, I get a satisfactory resolve, which would have to be beneficial to me in many different ways
Please stop being the victim, it is getting old.

I 100% agree with the above. Your sob stories are getting really old...........millions of people travel in this country travel in this country every day without incident, of all races,religions,..etc..yet, with you, there is always something. http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...m/rolleyes.gif

Why don't you get your little friend who insults FT'ers in the the Trip Reports section when they disagree with you, to travel with you. He can yell at the airline staff "who are all out to get the little brown man" for you ..... http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...m/rolleyes.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/mad.gif

Some battles are not worth fighting. I might of insisted on seeing the other passenger's BP but otherwise it could be a computer glitch. B747-437B was compensated by NW for their mistake.

As far as not putting much of a fuss I see his point. A friend of mine had been placed on an alert list and denied boarding by AA. At one point she made a bit of a fuss about this. She was delisted but AA still denies her boarding decause of the fuss she made. The bottom line, if anyone starts creating a fuss, you take the chance of being taken off the plane. Pick your battles!

I kind of see this whole sneaking into First Class thing as pretty wrong.

If you become a member of a cheap golf club then you can't go and sneak off and play at a championship course merely because you are a member of another golf club. Even though it doesnt cost the championship course anything to host you, in a similar way that it doesn't really cost the airline anything much to host you in F rather than Y (except for all the Krug you drink http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/wink.gif)

------------------
'There are only two emotions in a plane: boredom and terror'
Orson Welles (1915–1985)

What sob stories. I don't hear him sobbing, just *****ing about something that happened to him (as are like 75% of all posts on FT it would seem these days). I know several people of different "darker" ethnic backgrounds that have gotten a lot of grief the last two years, believing that it doesn't happen doesn't make it go away.

Then again I had something similar happen about 3-4 years ago on a Sabena flight. My seat was taken by a woman and the next two by her children. The FA was called oevr and basically told me to take another seat (didn't even ask for either of our boarding passes). As the row behind what was mine (BTW this was Euro style business) was free, I suggested that these three move back. The FA szaid they didn't have to.

To make a long story short, the woman was the Ambassador's wife and two kids and the Captain had told the FA to "take care" of them. I raised bloody hell with the Captain, got my seat back, the wife was put in the seat behind me (her original one) and the kids banished to economy.

Again, when the FA said "ok, go take an empty seat in coach - we have to leave now" there is no room for argument, whether or not you are in the right. You have to comply with a crewmember instructions or else you wind up in trouble. Such is the reality.

Well, as someone who has also suffered occasional discrimination because of my skin color/ethnic heritage (though being born/raised in LA gives me a very obvious Californian accent which usually solves the problem once I get a chance to speak) I do believe that this kind of stuff happens more often than people are willing to admit.

However, that being said, in this kind of situation I'd simply say "right, let me just write down your name for when I contact World HQ with my notice of a discrimination lawsuit."

Nothing gets people to pay attention more quickly than the fear of getting in serious trouble (i.e., JOB LOSS) for making a dumb decision that they're being called on.

http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...orum/smile.gif

Okay, everyone, I've been reading this thread, and I'd like to answer some questions and respond to some statements that have been made.

*I* sneak into First Class every chance I get. As a matter of fact, I've never been asked to move by a flight attendant. The only downside is that sometimes First Class is full, and then I've got no room in coach for my bags. So I take care of that now by asking at the gate if First Class is full. If it is, I get on ASAP. Another thing is that I don't hang around the gate until they call final boarding. That would make me look suspicious. I stand a couple gates down and then it looks like I was almost late to my gate.

In a week I'll be trying it on an international flight to Seoul.

If you have questions about how it works, or why I've never been caught, fire away. I will say that if I was ever asked to move, I'd move imediately and quietly.

Well, good luck. I don't think I've ever been on a long-haul flight in biz where they haven't checked the manifest (for names, requests, meals, etc.)

It's amazing that the FAs let people get away with this. If I were an FA, I'd be checking the manifest every flight. If nothing else, I'd just enjoy busting people trying to steal an upgrade.

d

I had a friend who did this all the time - and got away with it at least 75% of the time. A very good looking guy, with Charm (with a capital C), who had no shame about flirting with either male or female FAs - alot of the time, he would find a phone number pressed into his hand shortly before landing. Personally, I'd be too mortified to try it - I get embarassed if I'm sitting in the wrong seat, off by just one row.

I flew LAX-SYD last month (Qantas), and business was virtually empty (I think there were 7 of us). In the middle of the night, one guy came down from upper deck, and sat next to his friend... and proceeded to fall asleep after about half an hour of chatting. When breakfast came, the FA's actually made him go back upstairs to eat. (He asked twice to stay; they were polite, but adamant).

Personally, I didn't understand what the fuss was, but I would think that it would have been EXTREMELY unlikely that he would have gotten away with it on that flight!

In my mind it is easier to do on HP than UA or AA.

[QUOTE=Analise}

By sitting in a seat for which you have not paid, you are in fact stealing first-class service.[/QUOTE]

So I guess that time I was upgraded from Y to J last-minute on a flight from CGK to HKG in December I was stealing a seat. Ohhhh

When I think back to the days of steerage on transatlantic ocean liners, I'm certainly rooting for the guy from steerage sneaking up to 1st class. I'm sure most would agree (see Titanic). This is the same idea, isn't it? In 100 years they'll look back at this issue the same way we look back at old-time ocean liners.

Although I have not done this, I look at sneaking up as admirable.

There is no deception or threat involved. Until the flight attendant asks you to move, you've engaged in no deception of any kind. Now, along with other stories people here have posted - if a problem arises and you say something along the lines of "my boarding pass is buried in my carry-on" or if the flight attendant asks you if you are supposed to be traveling in FC today and you reply in the affirmative - THOSE are examples of deception. If you move to your proper seat when the flight attendant asks you to, without ever uttering any misrepresentation that you are supposed to be traveling in FC, then there is no deception.

It's the same as if right before take-off, I move to an exit row seat that's open. It's not the seat I paid for and I didn't have the capability of reserving that particular seat because I'm not enough of an "elite" - but is it "stealing" ? No.

No deception involved? The person is sitting in a seat / class for which they have not paid.

de·ceit
n.
: deliberate and misleading concealment, false declaration, or artifice.
Source: Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

con·ceal
tr.v.
To keep from being seen, found, observed, or discovered;
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition, Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

dec·la·ra·tion
n. 1. An explicit, formal announcement, either oral or written.
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition, Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

Is it dishonest to take a FC seat when you haven't paid for one? Yes. Is it deception? No.
There has to be an extra step involved for it to be deceit. You have to lie to the flight attendant. If you're just sitting in that seat in full view of the flight crew, there is NO deception as they're perfectly able (as MANY have related in this thread, both of personal experiences and those that they've observed) of questioning the passenger and/or checking the manifest and dealing with the situation if they so wish.

I think the issue, though, is....
 

steal 1 a : to take or appropriate without right or leave and with intent to keep or make use of wrongfully

I hope you're joking :td: :rolleyes:

I am honestly appalled at those of you who condone this sort of behavior, and can't understand how it can be rationalized as anything but outright theft.

I'll be sitting in my paid E+ seat when I go to HKG next month and won't be plopping down in C unless the airline chooses to give me an op-up. That's the difference; its their product and they can choose to do with it what they will. Otherwise I will take the product I paid for, which is a seat in economy (as uncomfortable as ORD-HKG in Y will be).

Indeed.

Wow, I never even thought to try this. I think its great, more power to people who do it.

I can't even believe someone would condone or encourage such theft! Have we degenerated into such a greedy society that stealing is lauded as something we aspire? Would any of you teach your child to do this? If so, I pity my child and grandchildren's world.

Isn't this why we have Federal Air Marshalls sit upfront? - so that they can shoot the riff raff that may try to up front? :D

-Vincent

What's the big deal?

This happens all the time on British trains - I must have seen it dozens of times, particularly when people guess the guard won't be round before their station comes along.

As long as the people pay up or move out when challenged, don't try to rub my nose in the fact they haven't paid, I personally don't have a big problem.

I get really p@@sed off with the snobby class attitude that still pervades in parts of the travel world. A few weeks back, I was fortunate enough to blag a couple of free first class return train tickets. My partner who doesn't normally travel long distances by train, and first class at that, was was quite excited, and she was chatting to the couple opposite about our free tickets, when a couple across the aisle were heard to say "I think people on free tickets should be in a different cabin to paying first class passengers". We were both careful to ensure we passed our scabies, plague and lice onto these full fare First Class snobs before we left. :D

As a F/A, I routinely check our final report to make sure everything jives with the count in F/C. If it doesn't and I see who the culprit is, I ask to see thier boading pass, I then politely escort them to the correct seat in the main cabin. It is embarassing enough to them to be caught so I don't go on and on about it. But I think it is terrible that people would try to do this. Whether the rightful people in B/F have been upgraded on miles or someone has paid full fare tickets that is where they should be! 9 times out of 10, the person is a MAN that was not upgraded as he thought he should be and is accustomed to sitting in B/F on other flights. But I guarantee you, if they witnessed someone doimg this when they WERE sitting in B/F, they would not appreciate the intrusion. As far as security reasons, it makes me uneasy to know someone is trying to "put one over on us" just by being sneaky. Who knows what their reasons are for trying such a thing.

I understand that some folks feel that anything they can get away with is OK. After all, it is only wrong if you get caught. However I believe that "sneaking" into first class is much like having your friends let you in the back door of a movie theater. You might get away with it, but it is still wrong. Just my $.02.

Can't speak for other legal systems, but under UK law (and other common-law systems are often similar), deception can be implied by conduct. It is certainly NOT necessary to explicitly "lie to the flight attendant." The airline gives you a boarding pass - and invites you to board. By taking up a seat and accepting services there is a deception here as to your status - you imply that you are someone entitled to sit in that seat in that cabin class. Indeed if you made an innocent mistake in taking up the wrong seat and later realised your mistake you would be guilty of a deception just by remaining silent and continuing to enjoy the service.

The main statute is the Theft Act 1968 as updated by 1978 and 1996 acts.
s1 Theft Act 1978 as amended by the Theft (Amendment) Act 1996 gives:

(1) A person who by any deception dishonestly obtains services from another shall be guilty of an offence.

(2) It is an obtaining of services where the other is induced to confer a benefit by doing some act, or causing or permitting some act to be done, on the understanding that the benefit has been or will be paid for.

No doubt things have diverged a little in the US, but note that in xanthuos's quote "concealment, false declaration, or artifice", there is the word "or". On this basis there does not have to be a false declaration - just an "artiface" would be enough.

Frankly if considering criminal law, case law is a better guide to "what counts" as a deception than dictionary definitions, especially if you have to follow through several definitions.

In any case, "there are many ways to skin a cat". In the UK a simple s1 Theft Act 1968 charge could be simpler once you've started "appropriating property":

s1: "A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it.."

The various terms are then defined in subsequent sections and are clear enough. A glass of orange juice would be enough - even if you could have got the same juice in economy.

The current legal test for dishonesty is doing something that:
1) is dishonest by the standards of ordinary and reasonable people and
2) knowing that the act was dishonest according to those standards.

So its no defence to say "I didn't think what I did was wrong". But you would get away with it if you could convince a jury that you thought normal people would have thought its OK. This aspect of the test is a balance of probabilities thing, not a beyond reasonable doubt thing.

Can't think anyone would try and prosecute it though.

As for a civil action, the airline could look at trespass or the provisions of the contract they have with pax. I should think damages from trespass would be pretty small but they might have entitled themselves to remove your airmiles, deny you boarding in the future etc.

Of course if there is any consent, then nothing is amiss.

(not a lawyer, yet, give me a job)

As for my experiences:

1) Two smelly, grubby, female backpackers plonked themselves down in Premium Laurel (C class) on EVA's 777 at Bangkok bound for London. Loads of bags, loads of attitude.

Cabin crew offered welcome drink and they asked for a "bottle of house red". "One moment please." Cabin was rather busy with boarding pax passing through. Moments later they jabbed the "call attendant" button and said "if you can't do the wine now can we at least have some juice, we've had a long day". Nothing was delivered. Once boarding was finished, the purser appeared and asked them their names which they gave. They weren't on the printout, so the purser politely asked for the boarding passes which they proudly presented. They had economy seats and were sitting 2 classes up. When the purser asked them to move they replied "No way, its too late now - we've already got comfortable. We don't want to sit back there, its packed out. Its a long flight, you know" Purser points out the door is still open - and that she'll ask BKK security to remove them if they don't move rightaway. They moved.

2) Husband flying with wife in economy. Had spotted his mistress several rows ahead in the same cabin. Asked the purser to upgrade the mistress to avoid trouble. She agreed.

I'm itching to know how you learned about this situation...

I'm not ratting out anybody, but someone I know, does this a lot. He happens to be my father-in-law. He usually gets away with it and sometimes the FAs just let him remain in the undeserved business class seat. He always pulls the old and confused look when in fact he's as sharp as a casino boss.

Here's a few tips from him...

(1) dress casual, but nice, like you're going to a cruise
(2) answer all questions slowly after some thinking
(3) pretend you don't know the difference between C and Y
(4) beg... very few FAs have the stomach to turn down a
requst like that from a little old man...

His all time best record was sitting in C for the entire flight from NY to London last year.

My mistress was on board too and she told me!

^ ^ ^

And thanks for doing so.

Oh, and welcome to FT.

We very much appreciate feedback from the other 'side'.

Lihue1k