Are you kidding me? No one could afford luxury hotels and first class airline tickets WITHOUT the free market system! Hard work, initiative, innovation and achievement are ALL that free market economies reward.

Government control of businesses is a certain road to incompetence and mediocrity. Take it from me, a professional lobbyist.

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Brian

But in that case your rationale for tipping, as outlined in your first post, disappears. One would have no more need to tip the waiter than the worker who packed the can of tuna one buys at the supermarket. The free market's definition of reward is inclusive in the market regulated price, whether that be a restaurant meal, a hotel room, or a can of tuna.

By the way, I never said anything about government control of businesses. I alluded instead to the role governments play during times when work of whatsoever nature cannot possibly be rewarded, because there is none to be found. I'd rather rely on law than on my grandiosity to take care of such situations.

[This message has been edited by simpleflyer (edited 06-05-2003).]

Newsflash: The things your boyfriend does...THAT'S WHY I PAY TO GO ON THE TOUR TO BEGIN WITH! If he DOESN'T do those things, then I feel ripped off. If he does those things, then the "tip" is that I tell other people that I liked the tour, and your boyfriend gets more business.

If 70% tip, that's not my problem. I'm firmly in the 30% here.

??????????????????

I don't even know how to respond to this one.

One way that the market economy rewards work (not necessarily 'harder' work or more efficient work, but more work) is by paying more depending on the hours worked.

Many workers are paid by the hour. If they work more hours, they are rewarded with more pay. If they do not work hard, they could be rewarded by no pay -- being sacked.

If the free market rewarded hard work or talent per se, one would see a magnitude effect. As it is, the falling price commanded by, say, Louisiana shrimp farmers for their product indicates not their slacking off of hard work, but an excess of supply of shrimp relative to present market demand. Meanwhile, no doubt Tom Cruise works hard, but his income relative to that of aforesaid shrimp farmers isn�t proportional to how much harder he works than they do. As for innovation, it too is also not necessarily rewarded by the free market � the list of failed inventions and product modifications (e.g. the Edsel car, �Pepsi Free�) is a long one.

Meanwhile, tipping is inconsistent with the free market system, for tipping amounts do not float on the open market, the way prices and wages do. There is rarely any agreement, in the form of a contracted price between seller and buyer, for what should be tipped. This is why threads like this one come up as often, and generate as much debate, as they do - not because there is any such agreement but because there is not. Sonofliberty, if you don�t believe in government-regulated businesses, one wonders why you would support any non-elected entity undertaking to tell the rest of us what constitutes �tipping regulations� for the hospitality business.

You began this thread by declaring that tipping amounts should reflect, not an increase in demand for a service relative to its supply, as would be the case if tipping followed the laws of the free market, but because the reverse has occurred: hard times have fallen upon the hospitality industry, and demand has shrunk. I agree it�s important to redress the hardships that can befall those who fall between the cracks of the free market, such that we apply, within reason, the dictum �from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs.� However, this is a social principle not a free market one. Ergo, if I lack faith in my ability to manage a restaurant payroll, you can bet I don�t have any faith in using tipping as a kind of self-administered social program! Better I should require my elected representative to administer my tax dollars in a fashion that will have a better chance of addressing those in greatest need, which in this case is most likely not your teary-eyed doorman, but those such as his former work colleagues who have been laid off entirely.


[This message has been edited by simpleflyer (edited 06-05-2003).]

Well said pinniped. I am with you. What nonsense? If the tour bus driver gives information and deserves tipping, we must then tip all persons in information counters at supermarkets, bus stations, hotels, air ports etc etc.
I agree with fairflyer that tipping should be restricted to the two categories he mentioned.
I do not go on cruises where gratuity is compulsorily collected. That is another rip off. Tips for Maitre De


[This message has been edited by drbala (edited 06-05-2003).]

I'm fastflyer, but I like fairflyer as a username, too.

To reiterate, especially for our foreign guests, tipping is really only "required" in the US for two professions: waiters and bartenders. The reasons relate to a labor-law peculiarity.

I put required in quotes because tipping even those two types of workers is not required if the service is just fair or poor. If the service is good or better, the custom in the US is 15% on food and $1 per drink.

Naturally an unusually exceptional performance by someone (I'm thinking of the concierge at the Vienna Hilton who managed to retrieve my Argentine shoes from the middle of Hungary and have them delivered to Boston) warrants an exceptional reward: meaningful cash for an exceptional service is done here just as in Europe.

Again, something taken out of context. The reason, as I explaine dit, was the tip was a thank you for the comped parking. Parking at these places is $$$$. (The overnight parking at the SFO RC is $45!).

I have been on tour buses where the drivers gave canned spiels and jokes. The tipping I do is when I feel I have been treated above and beyond. I am not saying that this is what I feel everyone should be doing. I am just saying that that is what I do.

Any tipped employee (waiter, bartender) that goes around complaining about how LITTLE they make needs to look at themselves. The money is there. For those of you that are adamant about how little you tip so be it. Others will tip higher amounts. Others lower. Time is the great equalizer, I believe. Que sera sera. (Or whatever it was that she sang....)



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Just trying to keep up with the gals in the trailer park next door.

In this era of outsourcing, "offshoring", and the general deflation of consumer prices, the vocal noises being made about expanding the gratuity concept really are at odds with reality.

Money in the service sector is headed away from things like tips. Not toward it. The lowest, "final" price will win the service sector game. Within a few months or years, I expect we will see more and more 'no-tipping' policies (where the waiters and bartenders are paid a standard wage).

Gratuities are an old custom in the US, and as I have stated above, that relates to two large non-standard-waged workers in that industry: waiters and bartenders. But that is the extent of it. Other people don't expect tips, and other people don't get them.

Don't you give tips to hairdressers? I would say that's almost as standard as waitresses and cab drivers.

I have never been to a hairdresser. My mother goes to one. I'll ask her.

Taxis do usually get 'rounded up.' I sense that this relates to avoid handling change.

Nonetheless, two examples of additional historic tipping custom in the US. (IIRC taxis in Europe dispense exact change).

My main point was that these old customs are headed into history. That the 'tipping' concept is on its way out. And that the big exceptions (where tipping is a substantial sum) -- waiters and bartenders -- are the last vestiges of this custom.

Why? Because it is cumbersome to have a two-tiered labor law defined around gratuities, and the conception of what constitutes a standard are so widely variant. We've heard everything from 10% to 20% on these threads.

For those traveling from abroad, just to reiterate, 15% is the standard for food service, plus $1 per drink, at the table or at the bar. The above poster is correct that you should "round up" your taxi fare, as drivers do not carry change.

Don't get in my taxi! It's 15% - 20% usually!

So if I take your taxi from the airport out to a client site, for $50 fare, you expect $10 on top of that?

Do you tell the customers this? What is their reaction to it?

I last drove a yellow taxi in NYC in 1973 or so. As a polite driver one would not comment on poor tips; one should just say thank you. But yes, on a $50 fare I would tip at least $7.50 on top of the fare, probably $10 for an airport trip. A typical cabbie has been waiting at the airport for 1-2 hours for your single fare from the airport (ask him/her how long they were at the airport next time you board a cab).

Furthermore, the cab is usually rented or the driver is an employee and thus earns only a portion of the meter. I used to get about 35%. Nowadays, I think drivers pay a daily fee and then keep any excess, if any.

But if you want to know, the number of fares who merely rounded up to avoid change (or did not tip at all) was less than 1%. Most people tipped at least 15% and on small fares like $3-$5 tipped at least a dollar.


[This message has been edited by RS (edited 06-12-2003).]