WHY should anyone have 2 passports?
Feb 6, 2003, 6:30 pm
#31
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The issue isn't so much, I think, whether the U.S. recognizes dual nationality as it is whether someone has legitimately obtained two nationalities, and the U.S. has no power to recognize or reject one of them. For instance someone born in the U.S. (naturally born American citizen) of parents who are, say, German nationals (therefore a naturally born German citizen), has both nationalities. Someone born abroad who becomes a naturalized American has to formally relinquish the foreign nationality, but the foreign country may or may not recognize this (I think Israel does not accept relinquishing its nationality). How would the U.S. "not accept" the other nationality in either case? There is a law requiring U.S. nationals to use their U.S. passport to enter the U.S., but beyond that there is little effect on dual nationals. The U.S. and Germany, however, have a tax agreement requiring dual nationals to pay taxes in the country where the taxpayer spends more of his time.
Feb 6, 2003, 6:38 pm
#32
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Here's the relevant Department of State stand on Dual Citizenship.
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">
The concept of dual nationality means that a person is a citizen of two countries at the same time. Each country has its own citizenship laws based on its own policy.Persons may have dual nationality by automatic operation of different laws rather than by choice. For example, a child born in a foreign country to U.S. citizen parents may be both a U.S. citizen and a citizen of the country of birth.
A U.S. citizen may acquire foreign citizenship by marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen may not lose the citizenship of the country of birth. U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship. However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship.
Intent can be shown by the person's statements or conduct. The U.S. Government recognizes that dual nationality exists but does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause. Claims of other countries on dual national U.S. citizens may conflict with U.S. law, and dual nationality may limit U.S. Government efforts to assist citizens abroad. The country where a dual national is located generally has a stronger claim to that person's allegiance.
However, dual nationals owe allegiance to both the United States and the foreign country. They are required to obey the laws of both countries. Either country has the right to enforce its laws, particularly if the person later travels there.Most U.S. citizens, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States. Dual nationals may also be required by the foreign country to use its passport to enter and leave that country. Use of the foreign passport does not endanger U.S. citizenship.Most countries permit a person to renounce or otherwise lose citizenship.
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The concept of dual nationality means that a person is a citizen of two countries at the same time. Each country has its own citizenship laws based on its own policy.Persons may have dual nationality by automatic operation of different laws rather than by choice. For example, a child born in a foreign country to U.S. citizen parents may be both a U.S. citizen and a citizen of the country of birth.
A U.S. citizen may acquire foreign citizenship by marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen may not lose the citizenship of the country of birth. U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship. However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship.
Intent can be shown by the person's statements or conduct. The U.S. Government recognizes that dual nationality exists but does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause. Claims of other countries on dual national U.S. citizens may conflict with U.S. law, and dual nationality may limit U.S. Government efforts to assist citizens abroad. The country where a dual national is located generally has a stronger claim to that person's allegiance.
However, dual nationals owe allegiance to both the United States and the foreign country. They are required to obey the laws of both countries. Either country has the right to enforce its laws, particularly if the person later travels there.Most U.S. citizens, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States. Dual nationals may also be required by the foreign country to use its passport to enter and leave that country. Use of the foreign passport does not endanger U.S. citizenship.Most countries permit a person to renounce or otherwise lose citizenship.
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Feb 6, 2003, 7:12 pm
#33
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Rudi:
I, for over 20 years, have two (identical) swiss passports - legally. Otherwise I could not have done business (selling licencies for non-alcoholi beers) at the same time with Saudi Arabia/Egypt/Iran and Irak on one side and with Israel (with the other passport).</font>
I, for over 20 years, have two (identical) swiss passports - legally. Otherwise I could not have done business (selling licencies for non-alcoholi beers) at the same time with Saudi Arabia/Egypt/Iran and Irak on one side and with Israel (with the other passport).</font>
Nothing to do with dual passports/citizenship (except my husband has British/USA passports)but....I got very good at putting the alcohol back into that near-beer when we lived in Saudi. Thanks Rudi
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Feb 7, 2003, 3:27 am
#35
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Terenz, thank you for the post.
What many do not understand is that NO COUNTRY makes its citizenship laws with regards to what any other countries laws are. Plain and simple.
Essayjax, Dual Nationality has always been "allowed" by the US, the party line is a bunch of gossip often originated from grandparents who reliquished or didn't keep up their original citizenship. I am amazed at how many supposedly intelligent people I have encountered that insist that their country does not allow dual citizenship, hell all someone would have to do is read the "notes" in their US passport for example, to know that US citizens can have dual nationality.
Also, terenz, the case you refer to referred to a certain gentleman who acquired Israeli citizenship and was then stripped of his US citizenship. This was overturned by the court. What the precedent did, was in fact give definition to what was at best a grey area. That being said the case took place in the 1950's I believe, so this has been the case for many years now in any case.
What many do not understand is that NO COUNTRY makes its citizenship laws with regards to what any other countries laws are. Plain and simple.
Essayjax, Dual Nationality has always been "allowed" by the US, the party line is a bunch of gossip often originated from grandparents who reliquished or didn't keep up their original citizenship. I am amazed at how many supposedly intelligent people I have encountered that insist that their country does not allow dual citizenship, hell all someone would have to do is read the "notes" in their US passport for example, to know that US citizens can have dual nationality.
Also, terenz, the case you refer to referred to a certain gentleman who acquired Israeli citizenship and was then stripped of his US citizenship. This was overturned by the court. What the precedent did, was in fact give definition to what was at best a grey area. That being said the case took place in the 1950's I believe, so this has been the case for many years now in any case.
Feb 7, 2003, 3:36 am
#36
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essxjay: Related question: exactly which countries does the U.S. -- in actuality -- recognize dual citizenship? I say in actuality b/c the official party line is that the U.S. doesn't.
they sure do allow dual citizenship, for at least twenty years now (probably much more).
I and Gisela know several US-born ladies married to swiss husbands, that did get the swiss citizenship and passport without loosing US-citizenship and passport.
they sure do allow dual citizenship, for at least twenty years now (probably much more).
I and Gisela know several US-born ladies married to swiss husbands, that did get the swiss citizenship and passport without loosing US-citizenship and passport.
Feb 7, 2003, 6:21 am
#37
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Yes, in general you can be a citizen of a number of countries:
1. Some countries will sell citizenships. People buy these as insurance policies as I said before against corrupt governments or for banking purposes.
2. Some countries, such as Israel or Ireland, allow people to become citizens due to their ancestry.
3. There are situations such as being born in another country (e.g. France) from American parents, where both the US law and the law of the country you are born in say you are their citizen.
Regarding the fallacy that you "can't" be a citizen of another country, that isn't true.
If you are born an American citizen (not a "naturalized" citizen) you cannot be stripped of your citizenship, period.
You can, however, renounce your American citizenship by making a declaration that you are renouncing in front of an American official (consul).
Every year, some people do this for tax reasons, as American tax law taxes citizens and permanent residents on worldwide income, unlike all other countries (with the exception of the Phillipines) who tax citizens on income earned while they are living within that country. Wealthy Americans can save millions in taxes by renouncing American citizenship under certain conditions.
However, if you are a naturalized citizen, you can lose your citizenship under certain conditions, e.g. have your citizenship revoked in event you made material lies in order to become naturalized or committed certain crimes.
1. Some countries will sell citizenships. People buy these as insurance policies as I said before against corrupt governments or for banking purposes.
2. Some countries, such as Israel or Ireland, allow people to become citizens due to their ancestry.
3. There are situations such as being born in another country (e.g. France) from American parents, where both the US law and the law of the country you are born in say you are their citizen.
Regarding the fallacy that you "can't" be a citizen of another country, that isn't true.
If you are born an American citizen (not a "naturalized" citizen) you cannot be stripped of your citizenship, period.
You can, however, renounce your American citizenship by making a declaration that you are renouncing in front of an American official (consul).
Every year, some people do this for tax reasons, as American tax law taxes citizens and permanent residents on worldwide income, unlike all other countries (with the exception of the Phillipines) who tax citizens on income earned while they are living within that country. Wealthy Americans can save millions in taxes by renouncing American citizenship under certain conditions.
However, if you are a naturalized citizen, you can lose your citizenship under certain conditions, e.g. have your citizenship revoked in event you made material lies in order to become naturalized or committed certain crimes.
Feb 7, 2003, 7:31 am
#38
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Maybe we can state which countries forbid multiple citizenships to some degree. I know that Austria does for its native-born citizens. In fact, it goes so far as to require its native-born citizens resident abroad to obtain proof they haven't taken out citizenship in that country of residence in order to get a certificate (staatsburgerschaftnachweis) stating that they're still Austrian citizens so they can renew or obtain a passport.
Singapore also forbids multiple citizenship. I believe citizens by descent are forced at age 16 to make a choice as to which country they wish to be citizens of. Additionally, the country doesn't, or at least didn't use to, confer citizenship based on birth if parents (at least one?) were not Singapore citizens/residents.
Germany is another country that grants citizenship by descent.
Singapore also forbids multiple citizenship. I believe citizens by descent are forced at age 16 to make a choice as to which country they wish to be citizens of. Additionally, the country doesn't, or at least didn't use to, confer citizenship based on birth if parents (at least one?) were not Singapore citizens/residents.
Germany is another country that grants citizenship by descent.
Feb 7, 2003, 7:43 am
#39
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by hfly:
the case you refer to referred to a certain gentleman who acquired Israeli citizenship and was then stripped of his US citizenship. This was overturned by the court. What the precedent did, was in fact give definition to what was at best a grey area. That being said the case took place in the 1950's I believe, so this has been the case for many years now in any case.</font>
the case you refer to referred to a certain gentleman who acquired Israeli citizenship and was then stripped of his US citizenship. This was overturned by the court. What the precedent did, was in fact give definition to what was at best a grey area. That being said the case took place in the 1950's I believe, so this has been the case for many years now in any case.</font>
Feb 7, 2003, 10:14 am
#40
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India very strictly FORBIDS multiple citizenships. My Indian passports have a huge endorsement on them stating that "IF HOLDER ACQUIRES CITIZENSHIP OF ANOTHER COUNTRY, CONTINUED POSSESION OF THIS DOCUMENT IS AN OFFENSE UNDER THE INDIAN PASSPORTS ACT". As I have been living abroad for 8 years now, I have to submit a notarized document affirming that I have not accepted citizenship of another country anytime I seek consular services.
Indian immigration are very shrewd about checking for telltale signs of multiple citizenship, such as lack of entry stamps in your passport after a trip abroad, etc.. If you are caught with passports from multiple countries, you face either loss of your Indian citizenship and deportation or else a lengthy jail term in India. No ifs, ands or buts.
The current government is beginning to soften towards the idea of multiple citizenships, but nothing official has come to pass yet. The Prime Minister is instituting a bill in Parliament next week on the dual citizenship issue and it is expected to pass. In the meanwhile though, it remains highly illegal.
Indian immigration are very shrewd about checking for telltale signs of multiple citizenship, such as lack of entry stamps in your passport after a trip abroad, etc.. If you are caught with passports from multiple countries, you face either loss of your Indian citizenship and deportation or else a lengthy jail term in India. No ifs, ands or buts.
The current government is beginning to soften towards the idea of multiple citizenships, but nothing official has come to pass yet. The Prime Minister is instituting a bill in Parliament next week on the dual citizenship issue and it is expected to pass. In the meanwhile though, it remains highly illegal.
Feb 7, 2003, 10:16 am
#41
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by terenz:
Maybe we can state which countries forbid multiple citizenships to some degree.</font>
Maybe we can state which countries forbid multiple citizenships to some degree.</font>
When you apply for US citizenship you are, at least under certain circumstances, allowed to change your name. This is one reason why a person can have two passports with two different names: the new in the US passport and the old in the passport from the original country.
Feb 7, 2003, 2:55 pm
#42
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Then again every Turkish/Kurdish emigre to Sweden for the past 40 years kept their Turkish nationality as Turkey did NOT allow its citizens to renounce their citizenship.
Almost all countries allow people to claim citizenship based on ancestors, the question is how far back they go. Germany takes it to the extreme with "blood" being the arbitor and can go back hundreds of years (The Volga Germans or Blumenau Germans as cases in point), while Italy will go back three generations, Britain I believe goes back only two generations now, etc.
Incidentally 747, I read in either the NYT or WSJ recently that the dual citizenship thing is sure to go through in India as they see it as a sure way to open up investment by the diaspora.
richard- you can be stripped of US citizenship even if you were born with it in cases of Treason.
If you renounce your citizenship, you can get it back at any time traditonally unless you did something like go to head a Lebanese militia, etc. Also more recently they made it almost impossible for those high net individuals you alluded to to regain their citizenship. Witness the case of Fred Alger who had renounced his US citizenship, taken Swiss citizenship, sold his company to his brother, and then had to come back and rebuild it after his brother and all top staff were wiped out in 9/11. He was given a choice, either a one off 2 year US work visa, or reinstatement of his US passport, as long as he paid the $200 million or so in taxes he avoided. The best example of this wre many members of the Getty family who jointly saved something like 2 billion in taxes when they renounced US citizenship and took Irish citizenship. I believe that the tax rate they negotiated wioth the government was 2%.
Also, regarding taxes, the US, Phillipines and Libya tax their non-resident citizens.
Track, the US-German tax treaty is a bit more complex than just where you spend the most time, it also has to do with where you draw your income, etc.
Also, the Austrian thing referenced above could only work with Austria as I can only imagine Austrians living abroad for decades and bothering to inform the authorities "back home" that they have attained another citizenship, I cannot imagine another government generating such a document for the Austrians! BTW, I know about 3 Austrians who have dual or even triple citizenship....how could that be??
Almost all countries allow people to claim citizenship based on ancestors, the question is how far back they go. Germany takes it to the extreme with "blood" being the arbitor and can go back hundreds of years (The Volga Germans or Blumenau Germans as cases in point), while Italy will go back three generations, Britain I believe goes back only two generations now, etc.
Incidentally 747, I read in either the NYT or WSJ recently that the dual citizenship thing is sure to go through in India as they see it as a sure way to open up investment by the diaspora.
richard- you can be stripped of US citizenship even if you were born with it in cases of Treason.
If you renounce your citizenship, you can get it back at any time traditonally unless you did something like go to head a Lebanese militia, etc. Also more recently they made it almost impossible for those high net individuals you alluded to to regain their citizenship. Witness the case of Fred Alger who had renounced his US citizenship, taken Swiss citizenship, sold his company to his brother, and then had to come back and rebuild it after his brother and all top staff were wiped out in 9/11. He was given a choice, either a one off 2 year US work visa, or reinstatement of his US passport, as long as he paid the $200 million or so in taxes he avoided. The best example of this wre many members of the Getty family who jointly saved something like 2 billion in taxes when they renounced US citizenship and took Irish citizenship. I believe that the tax rate they negotiated wioth the government was 2%.
Also, regarding taxes, the US, Phillipines and Libya tax their non-resident citizens.
Track, the US-German tax treaty is a bit more complex than just where you spend the most time, it also has to do with where you draw your income, etc.
Also, the Austrian thing referenced above could only work with Austria as I can only imagine Austrians living abroad for decades and bothering to inform the authorities "back home" that they have attained another citizenship, I cannot imagine another government generating such a document for the Austrians! BTW, I know about 3 Austrians who have dual or even triple citizenship....how could that be??
Feb 7, 2003, 3:09 pm
#43
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by hfly:
Also, the Austrian thing referenced above could only work with Austria as I can only imagine Austrians living abroad for decades and bothering to inform the authorities "back home" that they have attained another citizenship, I cannot imagine another government generating such a document for the Austrians!</font>
Also, the Austrian thing referenced above could only work with Austria as I can only imagine Austrians living abroad for decades and bothering to inform the authorities "back home" that they have attained another citizenship, I cannot imagine another government generating such a document for the Austrians!</font>
Feb 7, 2003, 4:05 pm
#44
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My girlfriend has three passports. She was born in the United States to a British father and an Australian mother. Pretty much the only reason she keeps all three passports is to go through the shorter lines in each country.
ETA: Yea yea, she doesn't have two fathers...
[This message has been edited by rafatmit (edited 02-09-2003).]
ETA: Yea yea, she doesn't have two fathers...
[This message has been edited by rafatmit (edited 02-09-2003).]
Feb 7, 2003, 4:49 pm
#45
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by hfly:
Britain I believe goes back only two generations now,
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Britain I believe goes back only two generations now,
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">
Also, the Austrian thing referenced above could only work with Austria as I can only imagine Austrians living abroad for decades and bothering to inform the authorities "back home" that they have attained another citizenship,
</font>
Also, the Austrian thing referenced above could only work with Austria as I can only imagine Austrians living abroad for decades and bothering to inform the authorities "back home" that they have attained another citizenship,
</font>
As B747 mentions, the Indian embassy in Canada has caught on to the availability of the citizenship record search.