Tipping
Sep 14, 2002 | 5:21 am
#31
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by SeAAttle:
A question for the Europeans (do not mean to lump all of you in one category, but would be interested in the standards in different countries):
When the service is included in the bill (ie, added to the total), and you feel the service was really bad, do you just pay it or do you ask for a reduction? I would probably do the former and be a bit steamed about it.
One other question: when the credit card slip has no line for service/tip, can one assume that it has been included? This came up often on a recent trip to Italy and I was a bit unsure. A few times, after really excellent service, I left a tip in cash on the table.</font>
A question for the Europeans (do not mean to lump all of you in one category, but would be interested in the standards in different countries):
When the service is included in the bill (ie, added to the total), and you feel the service was really bad, do you just pay it or do you ask for a reduction? I would probably do the former and be a bit steamed about it.
One other question: when the credit card slip has no line for service/tip, can one assume that it has been included? This came up often on a recent trip to Italy and I was a bit unsure. A few times, after really excellent service, I left a tip in cash on the table.</font>
If the service is really bad then yes, you can ask for the service charge to be deleted. They have no legal right to demand it. You will need the restaurant manager to achieve this of course. All tips in such places, in Britain at least, are generally pooled, so it doesn't really impact on your own waiter anyway. The pool often extends to the kitchen and others. I only use this where any reasonable place would not charge me for the item in the first place.
In France it is different; you may actually find menus stating that all gratuties added are paid "directly to the waiter". Do not be hesitant to ask the waiter if service is included ("Service compris?" in French). They are used to it and will always answer directly yes or no. I find it's different in US establishments where it is included.
Regarding the credit card slip being incomplete, no this is no guide. You must look at the menu (often a little line at the bottom) or the bill to tell you that x% will be/has been added. In addition there will sometimes be "cover", which is a flat say 2 per person added. That definitely does not make its way back to the waiter.
Tip lines on credit card slips are an Americanism which is slowly creeping across Europe. The merchants certainly used to be required to complete the slip fully as part of their agreement with the CC company; I don'tknow how that got changed. This is why Europeans visiting the US often leave the slip incomplete; they are not really used to it yet. The "elegant" way in Europe is to pay the bill by card (no tip if a tip line) and then tip the waiter, in cash, on the dish underneath the credit card slip.
For many years in the dining cars on British trains the bill came with a huge red "Gratuities not included" printed diagonally it. It's finally gone now. (I know this is an FF board but I've sneaked in a bit about railways there).
Sep 14, 2002 | 11:29 am
#32
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,673
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by SeAAttle:
A question for the Europeans:
When the service is included in the bill, and you feel the service was really bad, do you just pay it or do you ask for a reduction? </font>
A question for the Europeans:
When the service is included in the bill, and you feel the service was really bad, do you just pay it or do you ask for a reduction? </font>
In my experience the 'service included' line in Europe can be read as:
- no additional tip: client is displeased with the service
- some small change left: normal service, not fancy eatery and/or obviously not prosperous customer (students, etc.)
- about 5% additional tip: client is relatively satisfied, normal restaurant
- 10% or so: client is very satisfied
- more than 10% in new bills: exceptional service at a fancy restaurant
As a result, I have trouble realizing I am expected to tip 15% even for mediocre service in the USA.
Sep 14, 2002 | 7:05 pm
#33
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Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Cambridge
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New pet peeve on tipping...
At what point did it become customary to tip the bell staff who call for a cab? I especially object to doing this at a hotel where the cabs are already lined up.
It's one thing if the bell staff has to call the cab company or give directions, but otherwise you've not earned anything.
Worst of all, they open the door and keep their palms out. I just look directly at them (so they're sure I know what they want), and then just close the door.
At what point did it become customary to tip the bell staff who call for a cab? I especially object to doing this at a hotel where the cabs are already lined up.
It's one thing if the bell staff has to call the cab company or give directions, but otherwise you've not earned anything.
Worst of all, they open the door and keep their palms out. I just look directly at them (so they're sure I know what they want), and then just close the door.
Sep 14, 2002 | 7:36 pm
#34
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Join Date: May 1998
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ResAgent86 -
I was 17 and changing the oil on my new Kawaski Motorcycle. I overtighted the lug nut that I removed to drain the oil. A 2-inch crack formed in the cast-aluminum block. Very lucky for me that I got it welded and re-threaded for $10. I am great with anything digital, but really bad with anything analog.
I was 17 and changing the oil on my new Kawaski Motorcycle. I overtighted the lug nut that I removed to drain the oil. A 2-inch crack formed in the cast-aluminum block. Very lucky for me that I got it welded and re-threaded for $10. I am great with anything digital, but really bad with anything analog.
Sep 15, 2002 | 8:21 am
#35
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 445
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by g_leyser:
As a veteran of the hotel industry, allow me to add some insite. ......
Please keep in mind that bellhops, valets, waiters, bartenders, bathroom attendants, etc. make very little (if any) base wage. Tips are their livelihood.
</font>
As a veteran of the hotel industry, allow me to add some insite. ......
Please keep in mind that bellhops, valets, waiters, bartenders, bathroom attendants, etc. make very little (if any) base wage. Tips are their livelihood.
</font>
Sep 15, 2002 | 9:01 am
#36
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,673
I am very much in favor of a system where tips still reflect satisfaction with above-average service; basic wages ought to be high enough to provide a decent income to hotel staff.
To take the exemple of Japan, I always get excellent, and sometimes exceptional service (such as the one who had my carry-on's broken handle nicely repaired) from Japanese bellhops, who absolutely refuse to be tipped.
To take the exemple of Japan, I always get excellent, and sometimes exceptional service (such as the one who had my carry-on's broken handle nicely repaired) from Japanese bellhops, who absolutely refuse to be tipped.
Sep 15, 2002 | 9:47 am
#37
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My area of concern lately has been hotel shuttle drivers on airport runs. I give them, generally, a flat $2 per ride, figuring that a cab would cost a lot more and mass transit (I travel rather light) might be cheaper, but more of a pain.
I would prefer that I keep both bags with me and not trouble the driver at all. However, the guy (they've been almost exclusively male)tends to grab the larger (neither heavy nor bulky) bag and put it in the back. Objecting seems silly, but I do wonder whether that it is "justify" some expectation of a tip?
Unless the person is very friendly, offers some insider info on things to see/do, etc. I rarely tip more than a flat buck for a beer or two. To me, working at a counter and plonking a bottle down (or pulling a draft) is not the same as carrying dishes across the room.
I would prefer that I keep both bags with me and not trouble the driver at all. However, the guy (they've been almost exclusively male)tends to grab the larger (neither heavy nor bulky) bag and put it in the back. Objecting seems silly, but I do wonder whether that it is "justify" some expectation of a tip?
Unless the person is very friendly, offers some insider info on things to see/do, etc. I rarely tip more than a flat buck for a beer or two. To me, working at a counter and plonking a bottle down (or pulling a draft) is not the same as carrying dishes across the room.
Sep 15, 2002 | 12:38 pm
#38
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Rut Dog:
Boo Boo Too,
We also have a very different social welfare system all around from the UK and most of Europe. Our minimum wage is well below the poverty level, and the "safety net" has a lot more holes in it than in the UK. And wealth disparity, the gap between the rich and the poor, is quite high in the US.
I'm NOT making a political statement or advocating any position. I'm simply pointing out that non-apparent circumstances can sometimes dictate differences of behavior in seemingly familiar situations. This is true, of course, whenever travelling to any foreign country.
I, too, find it rude when hotel employees in particular dig for tips. Maybe, though, it is a uniquely American trait to be cold hearted and just treat this like any business transaction. But then, I'll always remember how hard it was for me to make ends meet when I was waiting tables and carrying luggage, and how challenging it really was to provide consistently good service. I enjoyed the challenge, but realized that if I had a bad day at work (distracted by something personal, under the weather) I could lose 50% of my income for the day. So usually, I just dig in and hand over a tip.
Here's one thing I do: I go to a bank and get some $2 bills and $1 gold coins. The uniqueness of this tender inflates their value. If I tip a with a two, the look on the recipient's face is often similar to if I had just handed over a fiver.
Meanwhile, if you're interested in learning more about wage and welfare issues in the US, http://www.epinet.org/ is one place to start, though they have a generally liberal agenda. And, of course, those on the right have some very different opinions at http://www.epionline.org/.</font>
Boo Boo Too,
We also have a very different social welfare system all around from the UK and most of Europe. Our minimum wage is well below the poverty level, and the "safety net" has a lot more holes in it than in the UK. And wealth disparity, the gap between the rich and the poor, is quite high in the US.
I'm NOT making a political statement or advocating any position. I'm simply pointing out that non-apparent circumstances can sometimes dictate differences of behavior in seemingly familiar situations. This is true, of course, whenever travelling to any foreign country.
I, too, find it rude when hotel employees in particular dig for tips. Maybe, though, it is a uniquely American trait to be cold hearted and just treat this like any business transaction. But then, I'll always remember how hard it was for me to make ends meet when I was waiting tables and carrying luggage, and how challenging it really was to provide consistently good service. I enjoyed the challenge, but realized that if I had a bad day at work (distracted by something personal, under the weather) I could lose 50% of my income for the day. So usually, I just dig in and hand over a tip.
Here's one thing I do: I go to a bank and get some $2 bills and $1 gold coins. The uniqueness of this tender inflates their value. If I tip a with a two, the look on the recipient's face is often similar to if I had just handed over a fiver.
Meanwhile, if you're interested in learning more about wage and welfare issues in the US, http://www.epinet.org/ is one place to start, though they have a generally liberal agenda. And, of course, those on the right have some very different opinions at http://www.epionline.org/.</font>
Thank you for being fair enough to post Websites telling both sides of the story on wages & welfare.
It is interesting to note that the origin of tipping is elitist: an amount which is chickenfeed to the donor but meaningful to the donee.
BTW, what are the minimum wages in European countries?
------------------
Play the travel game 3 vacations into the future!
Sep 15, 2002 | 2:15 pm
#39
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by monahos:
I am very much in favor of a system where tips still reflect satisfaction with above-average service; basic wages ought to be high enough to provide a decent income to hotel staff.
To take the exemple of Japan, I always get excellent, and sometimes exceptional service (such as the one who had my carry-on's broken handle nicely repaired) from Japanese bellhops, who absolutely refuse to be tipped.</font>
I am very much in favor of a system where tips still reflect satisfaction with above-average service; basic wages ought to be high enough to provide a decent income to hotel staff.
To take the exemple of Japan, I always get excellent, and sometimes exceptional service (such as the one who had my carry-on's broken handle nicely repaired) from Japanese bellhops, who absolutely refuse to be tipped.</font>
REGARDLESS if you made the money or not.
http://209.100.134.195/mwr/business_...lTipManual.pdf
FYI most of those people in those positions have paychecks of less than $100 per week after they have been taxed.
[This message has been edited by wingless (edited 09-15-2002).]
Sep 16, 2002 | 8:54 am
#41
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: San Jose, CA USA
Posts: 1,926
Well, it's quite a thread--tipping--on the mileage forum, at that! The only thing I can suggest to add is to rent Reservoir Dogs and take in the "tipping scene", which occurs early in the movie. For me, it was one of the more memorable treatises on tipping I have come across.
Collateral dialogue (language) during the scene (as well as in most of the rest of the movie) may be too intense for pre-teenagers.
Collateral dialogue (language) during the scene (as well as in most of the rest of the movie) may be too intense for pre-teenagers.
Sep 16, 2002 | 2:23 pm
#42
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I basically give these guys a $1 a bag tip maxing out at $3. If I have just a carry on I'll give him/her a $1 anyway.
this week I gave the guy $5 because as I was running out the airport to the shuttle stand the shuttle had made its pickup and he was leaving. So I ran down the little lane till I caught him and he pulled over and stopped in an area wasn't supposed to and I would have had to wait an extra hour or cab it.. so to me it was worth the five spot.
I've been in some shuttles where they won't stop unless its their designated spot so I figured he was helping me out.
this week I gave the guy $5 because as I was running out the airport to the shuttle stand the shuttle had made its pickup and he was leaving. So I ran down the little lane till I caught him and he pulled over and stopped in an area wasn't supposed to and I would have had to wait an extra hour or cab it.. so to me it was worth the five spot.
I've been in some shuttles where they won't stop unless its their designated spot so I figured he was helping me out.
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Points Scrounger:
My area of concern lately has been hotel shuttle drivers on airport runs. I give them, generally, a flat $2 per ride, figuring that a cab would cost a lot more and mass transit (I travel rather light) might be cheaper, but more of a pain.
I would prefer that I keep both bags with me and not trouble the driver at all. However, the guy (they've been almost exclusively male)tends to grab the larger (neither heavy nor bulky) bag and put it in the back. Objecting seems silly, but I do wonder whether that it is "justify" some expectation of a tip?
Unless the person is very friendly, offers some insider info on things to see/do, etc. I rarely tip more than a flat buck for a beer or two. To me, working at a counter and plonking a bottle down (or pulling a draft) is not the same as carrying dishes across the room.
</font>
My area of concern lately has been hotel shuttle drivers on airport runs. I give them, generally, a flat $2 per ride, figuring that a cab would cost a lot more and mass transit (I travel rather light) might be cheaper, but more of a pain.
I would prefer that I keep both bags with me and not trouble the driver at all. However, the guy (they've been almost exclusively male)tends to grab the larger (neither heavy nor bulky) bag and put it in the back. Objecting seems silly, but I do wonder whether that it is "justify" some expectation of a tip?
Unless the person is very friendly, offers some insider info on things to see/do, etc. I rarely tip more than a flat buck for a beer or two. To me, working at a counter and plonking a bottle down (or pulling a draft) is not the same as carrying dishes across the room.
</font>
Sep 17, 2002 | 8:40 am
#43
Original Poster
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,135
I believe that the minimum wage in the UK is still under 4 ($6). I don't know how the tax situation in the UK compares with the US, but I know that the general cost of living in the UK is significantly higher (property, rent, food, petrol etc.).
Affording a $400 business meal (my husband has his own business and was entertaining clients) and being peeved about paying a dollar to the restroom attendant who hands you a paper towel or sprays soap on your hand can be understandable. Believe it or not, a number of women do go to restaurants without any money on them: should I have fled the bathroom and asked my husband for a dollar before "spending a penny" (English saying for "using the restroom")?
Also, we do stay at nice hotels and eat at nice restaurants. We are comfortable, but not rich. We always tip waiters, the bell boy who delivers our bags to our room, taxi drivers, maids, room service, valets and a few others. So we are definitely not tight, but I don't see it as my responsibility to tip the whole world (the other three bell boys who touch our bags between curb and room, the restroom attendants). I live in a very touristy city in the UK and we have a lot of beggars here: people who aggressively demand tips seem very similar. Is begging (i.e. asking for money) illegal in the US?
I was competing in a sports hall in the suburbs of Moscow last September (I am currently a full-time athelete: not a wage earner or a welfare claimer). I went into the restrooms there and was stunned to find them amazingly clean (spotless!) and a little old lady really hard at work keeping them that way. After using them (and appreciating their cleanliness and how hard she obviously worked to keep them that way) I tried to hand her some money. She shooed me away and laughed heartily. She took real pride in her work, obviously earned a lot less than our idea of the minimum wage, but didn't want tipping. This is amazing especially since the smarter bits of Moscow is run at rip-off prices (New York and London have nothing on Moscow as far prices are concerned...).
I agree with the keeping small notes handy: I always go to the bank and get lots of $1 notes before going to the US. We normally survive on these for tipping people, but I don't always remember to put them in my evening bag before going to a posh restaurant.
Boo
Affording a $400 business meal (my husband has his own business and was entertaining clients) and being peeved about paying a dollar to the restroom attendant who hands you a paper towel or sprays soap on your hand can be understandable. Believe it or not, a number of women do go to restaurants without any money on them: should I have fled the bathroom and asked my husband for a dollar before "spending a penny" (English saying for "using the restroom")?
Also, we do stay at nice hotels and eat at nice restaurants. We are comfortable, but not rich. We always tip waiters, the bell boy who delivers our bags to our room, taxi drivers, maids, room service, valets and a few others. So we are definitely not tight, but I don't see it as my responsibility to tip the whole world (the other three bell boys who touch our bags between curb and room, the restroom attendants). I live in a very touristy city in the UK and we have a lot of beggars here: people who aggressively demand tips seem very similar. Is begging (i.e. asking for money) illegal in the US?
I was competing in a sports hall in the suburbs of Moscow last September (I am currently a full-time athelete: not a wage earner or a welfare claimer). I went into the restrooms there and was stunned to find them amazingly clean (spotless!) and a little old lady really hard at work keeping them that way. After using them (and appreciating their cleanliness and how hard she obviously worked to keep them that way) I tried to hand her some money. She shooed me away and laughed heartily. She took real pride in her work, obviously earned a lot less than our idea of the minimum wage, but didn't want tipping. This is amazing especially since the smarter bits of Moscow is run at rip-off prices (New York and London have nothing on Moscow as far prices are concerned...).
I agree with the keeping small notes handy: I always go to the bank and get lots of $1 notes before going to the US. We normally survive on these for tipping people, but I don't always remember to put them in my evening bag before going to a posh restaurant.
Boo
Sep 17, 2002 | 9:22 am
#44
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by monahos:
I am very much in favor of a system where tips still reflect satisfaction with above-average service; basic wages ought to be high enough to provide a decent income to hotel staff.</font>
I am very much in favor of a system where tips still reflect satisfaction with above-average service; basic wages ought to be high enough to provide a decent income to hotel staff.</font>
As I commented above, any traveler can tip anyone that they choose.
But the tip-everyone crowd causes a negative effect for the vast majority of travelers who tip 15%, limited generally to the traditional, non-standard-wage employees (US waiters and US bartenders). The negative effect is that it ruins it for the rest of us.
Expectations of tips from all sorts of employees lessen the travel experience. And it has the significantly negative social effect of lessening the value of work. Work performed should be compensated by wages, not by soliciting additional money from customers.
Sep 17, 2002 | 9:55 am
#45
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by fastflyer:
Very well said, monahos.
But the tip-everyone crowd causes a negative effect for the vast majority of travelers who tip 15%, limited generally to the traditional, non-standard-wage employees (US waiters and US bartenders). The negative effect is that it ruins it for the rest of us.
</font>
Very well said, monahos.
But the tip-everyone crowd causes a negative effect for the vast majority of travelers who tip 15%, limited generally to the traditional, non-standard-wage employees (US waiters and US bartenders). The negative effect is that it ruins it for the rest of us.
</font>
Are the Tipping unions picketing you?
I cannot ever, ever recall being harassed our even placed in an uncomfortable position by someone expecting a tip, but if they did how could that possibly ruin my travel experience?
Look, the vast majority of my travels are personal/pleasure I really have no time to worry about piddly s.. things like whether I shoud tip or not. I feel like giving someone a few coins or a dollar for the service I received I do, end of story. My travel experiences are too precious to worry about stuff like that.
If you feel you harrassed complain to the management tell you wont return till the policy is changed and if enough people complain it will be. If not patronize somewhere else.
Maybe you some of you guys need to lighten up, enjoy life a little!!.
Mike
[This message has been edited by MIKESILV (edited 09-17-2002).]