Is now the time to demand consumer-friendly changes?
#16




Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Roswell, GA
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I know I am going to enjoy this thread.. but sorry , I have some ideas myself.. but my wife is calling me..
she needs her diet mountain dew.. back soon..
she needs her diet mountain dew.. back soon..
#17



Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: AMS
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Congratulations consumer champion! Your hypothetical country now has zero operating airlines and every single future traveller just lost the value of their ticket.
#18
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Canada, USA, Europe
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I think now IS the right time to start pushing consumer rights, but not nearly as extensive as what you're laying out. The government has no role in regulating frequent flyer programs - airlines could just as easily not offer them and continue to serve their function of providing critical transportation. So, what should the government look at?
- Minimum seat pitch and width requirements. No, we won't all end up with business-class-like legroom, but it's clear airlines will continue to squeeze people together beyond what is comfortable and arguably safe in a race to the bottom of profitability.
- Required refunds on all ancillary fees when service isn't delivered. Bag delayed? You don't have to pay!
- Advertised and aggregated airfares must include the cost of a seat and a carry-on bag in the bottom line total.
- Timely refunds. Take the carriers to the woodshed for holding on to people's money for so long during all these cancellations. Refunds must be paid within 72 hours of request or accumulate $100 /day /ticket in fines.
- Tickets must be able to be cancelled through every channel they can be booked through. I shouldn't have to call and wait on hold for 3 hours to get my money back if you're willing to take my money online in 10 minutes.
- Hygiene - Planes must be cleaned/disinfected once every x hours of flight time. Bathrooms must have operable sinks and soap.
I'm sure there's a lot more.
- Minimum seat pitch and width requirements. No, we won't all end up with business-class-like legroom, but it's clear airlines will continue to squeeze people together beyond what is comfortable and arguably safe in a race to the bottom of profitability.
- Required refunds on all ancillary fees when service isn't delivered. Bag delayed? You don't have to pay!
- Advertised and aggregated airfares must include the cost of a seat and a carry-on bag in the bottom line total.
- Timely refunds. Take the carriers to the woodshed for holding on to people's money for so long during all these cancellations. Refunds must be paid within 72 hours of request or accumulate $100 /day /ticket in fines.
- Tickets must be able to be cancelled through every channel they can be booked through. I shouldn't have to call and wait on hold for 3 hours to get my money back if you're willing to take my money online in 10 minutes.
- Hygiene - Planes must be cleaned/disinfected once every x hours of flight time. Bathrooms must have operable sinks and soap.
I'm sure there's a lot more.
#19




Join Date: Jul 2014
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#20
FlyerTalk Evangelist




Join Date: Jul 1999
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Market forces are a better lever than any puffed-up customer revolt. (Boycotts, etc. by aggrieved airline clientele are notorious for looking small and stupid, as most of the customer base just wants to fly at the lowest price, whether the limes on the bar cart are cut the way FlyerTalk likes or not.)
In a prosperous era the airlines make bank and exploit passengers. In a recession or depression the airlines have to campaign for revenue and be nicer to passengers. Simple as that. Remember United Airlines happily throwing its customers into the labor-management crossfire during the famous 2000 SFH (Summer From Hell), then sheepishly pivoting to trying to be nice whilst flirting with BK and possibly extinction after 9/11? We'll see the same swing of the pendulum here.
Have you taken a look at the financials of most of the world's airlines over a long run? Margins are tight and many have had to be bailed out or are kept alive by subsidies. I'm not a fan of nationalisation, but perhaps the thing to do is to view air travel as public transit and accept that the taxpayer has a role in maintaining an airline.
Last edited by BearX220; Apr 8, 2020 at 6:08 am
#21
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No I don't see it happening now. What I "possibly" see is tragically one day is an accident with a completely packed 28-29 seat pitch a/c and not everyone getting out of the a/c alive. Then the blame put on too cramped seating conditions. Maybe then there would be changes.
#22


Join Date: May 2004
Location: BKK
Posts: 272
Every time new regulations are proposed there's always someone there to tell us why it's the doom of industry. They claimed it when the government instituted regulations requiring airfares to be advertised including taxes and fees. They claimed it when the government mandated free cancellations within 24 hours. They claimed it when the government would no longer let airlines hold passengers hostage for 6+ hours during bad weather. It's just not true.
#23
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Air carriers can mine their own data and figure out what ought to be included in a base ticket price and what ought to be sold a la carte.
#24


Join Date: May 2004
Location: BKK
Posts: 272
Have you taken a look at the financials of most of the world's airlines over a long run? Margins are tight and many have had to be bailed out or are kept alive by subsidies. I'm not a fan of nationalisation, but perhaps the thing to do is to view air travel as public transit and accept that the taxpayer has a role in maintaining an airline. These measures you are proposing are simply not feasible for a public listed commercial business.
#25


Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Canada
Programs: Star Alliance G*, Marriott Bonvoy Titanium,
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yes
They tried a passenger bill of rights in Canada and it got suspended during the pandemic. Furthermore, AC changed its tariffs when this "BoR" came into effect to tie involuntary refunds (for irops, cancelations) to the BoR rather than making it an entitlement of the tariff as it had been previously, so... Be careful what you wish for
So my answer to the question is yes. If not now, when?
#26
FlyerTalk Evangelist




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It's a difficult point to put across in this hypercharged climate, but if the airlines had kept $45 billion in cash sitting around in expectation of a long-shot economic apocalypse unlikely to ever occur, they would be fending off criticism of a different kind.
#28
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Neither the US nor Canada, nor any developed economy are going to let their key air carrier infrastructure go to pot. Period.
Worrying about stock buybacks, FFP's, bag fees and other stuff (as occurs in other threads) simply isn't worth the bandwidth.
Worrying about stock buybacks, FFP's, bag fees and other stuff (as occurs in other threads) simply isn't worth the bandwidth.
#29
FlyerTalk Evangelist




Join Date: Jul 1999
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Other US carriers that went bankrupt and ceased operations, e.g. dropped dead, include Braniff, Eastern ATA, the first Frontier, Aloha, the second National, Midway, Skybus, and many more... not including distressed carriers like Pan Am and TWA that were on the verge of shutting down when acquired.
#30


Join Date: May 2004
Location: BKK
Posts: 272
I didn't say they should have sat around on a pile of cash. I said maybe they should have taken one row of seats out of their planes. Or included a carry-on bag with every ticket. Or made their websites more functional. Or done literally anything else with that $45 billion that would make me more sympathetic to their cause. They didn't have to please consumers for the last ten years because they had plenty of demand and, well, that's business. But now the shoe is on the other foot. Why shouldn't we have demands?

