The value of first class
 

I am not sure I would appreciate first/business class. It’s comfortable certainly, and the extra room is nice; I am six feet tall, the average height of men in say Holland, but somehow I’m just fine in coach. Being slim, I’m not impacted much sideways or forward.

Free drinks and various other perks surely come in handy too. But when I flew first class once in my twenties, the temptation of keeping the drinks coming may have caused some of my enjoyment to be blacked out.

Going to a good restaurant from time to time is worthwhile, as is in general going somewhere on vacation to unwind and being open to the world around you. Museums, taking a horse and buggy ride through the park, a really nice hotel.

But stepping up from economy on a plane? Is it any better than an airport lounge with the notable exception than alcohol is free? Even if I could lie down and sleep, wouldn’t I want to remember my time here? Is it unreasonable to consider that part of the fun?

You reach the gap in quality quickly; an upgrade tends to revolve around quantity. More legroom, square footage Vegas-style. And does more distance to your neighbor seat make the noise any less irritating when he rattles the entire inside of the bag for every potato chip that he picks up individually?

Like it is never going to stop. Or when he flips through a magazine one page at a time, trying to find something to read on the open page and yet at the same time have the fingers ready for the next. It’s unlikely that there’s a correlation between class and manners, or just that you’re more relaxed when your seating is more comfortable.

Maybe that’s what I'm afraid of now that my wife thinks it could be fun once again trying out first class. I’m sure it could be, hopefully. Stretching out and flushing all those years of cramped economy out of the system. Relaxing your muscles, getting the personal Pan Am experience by some pretty flight attendant. Wow, did I really say that? I must be dreaming!

I have nothing to whine about. We just got a chunk of free points due to some inconvenience that an airline’s delayed flight put us through. Which airline, do you think, should we spend the upgrade on? Air France, British Airways, Air Canada come to mind. Thank you very much.

If you don't see the value in first class, don't use it. I hate coach and it's been a lonnnng time since I was stuck there. Different strokes for different folks. If you don't like First, use the points for economy.

The value depends on the trip.

I have a 30 hour journey tomorrow, SAN-IAD-GRU-GIG...7 hour layover at IAD. I have no useful status on United, I am an American Airlines flier. I ponied up for Economy + on the IAD-GIG segment (10 hours), but only because F was sold out. I also paid out of pocket for F on the SAN-IAD portion. It's 5 hours.

Yes, it's domestic F on United. But consider, looking down the barrel of a 30 hour door to door trip, ANY segment I can make more comfortable is worth the money. I don't even care about the priority lines or bags or drinks. I am thinking about getting as comfortable as possible when I can to make myself resemble a human by the time I get to the end door in Rio.

However, if I were just making a 2 hour run domestically, no way would I pony up the money and buy up. I may chase a miles UG, but I don't care much on a light trip. I can tolerate maybe 3 hours tops in coach. After that, it's got to be at least J.

presumably there were compelling reasons (price, schedule, whatever) for taking that UA routing rather than AA or another OneWorld carrier ... but as far as YOU were concerned for YOUR instant situation, the first sentence says it all

OP: If you're perfectly content in Coach, and you don't see the value in spending significant extra money for Business or First, then fly Coach. It's simple. You don't need to justify it to us with bragsplanation.

The comparison between the cost difference of Y and J/F is always going to be moot point, but I think it is a interesting argument.

50% of my flying is done within Europe so for the hours of flying I don't see the value in paying for J class Europe. Particular when you get to a status when you can use the lounge. However I have done quite a few red eye flights in the states the past two years and have flown F class every time and was glad for it, just the wider seat allowed a better rest.

In my early days of the travelling my expenses only allowed me Y class but within the past 6 years my expense account has allowed me to travel Intercontinental in J class. when you have many years of sitting in back cooped up, sitting with a lot more space is a nice change. I do think that J and F class has to be earned for it to have any meaning.

For me I value it because I'm 6'3 and broad shouldered so for me Y class long haul has always been a problem more width ways than leg room tbh. It's ok when you get a small asian lady but having a large anglo saxon next to you like me for 10 hours+ can be hell on earth.

However I wouldn't pay anything for the privilege. There is limits, my next trip is to Hong Kong September. I've ended up going with Finnair from LHR to HKG via HEL. Each way it cost just over £1250 (GBP) Now I accept that 2.5k is not cheap and you can get you a lot of a holiday for that but for the distance you cover is it actually alot? It's £2.40 per mile, how much does your car cost per mile to run? You can pay more per mile for a train ticket sometimes.

However I also looked at Cathay and they wanted £4400 for a return trip. I couldn't justify that cost. I would never pay the full price for a F class ticket intercontinental ticket, unless I won't the lottery. I've only ever used miles for F class intercontinental. If my expenses allowed me to fly F would I? probably! :D but only because I could as opposed that I wanted too.

I always wondered why an airline hasn't decided to offer a no frills business product. Cut out all lounges, booze and baggage allowances etc and just offer a J class seat at around the premium economy level price wise, you make the food a pay extra as well. A lot of my friends and acquaintances (myself included) would lap it up. However they price J class flights to keep out the undesirables. That's not to say that all people who travel in J and F are discreet travellers but there is a pattern.... Let's say you get less of them, perhaps less so on the holiday destinations but definitely to the business destinations, the crowd are usually regulars and know the score, is that worth paying extra... for me yes.

When someones as me how much a flight cost, often the very cheapskates say "that much you could buy......" or something along those lines. I always say you take too much of a materialistc view on money. People pay millions for a stone that sparkles a bit and even more for a bit of canvas which has some paint lashed on by a drunk man who was that doped up when he painted it. He also cant remember its meaning if it ever had any. So is spending money on more room on a plane really that strange!?;)

In regards to your question on which It's depends where you are, from reading assuming your North American based. Ive only one F class trans-Atlantic. I hear Air France new first class is very good. I would recommend AA new J class, which is now better than BA's product. The Middle East carriers do the most over the top F class services. I also like Lufthansa product as well.

some of us spend (similar amounts) on accommodations instead of J/F

J/F sometimes have great fares, or good deal via buying miles from airline
(sometimes Y prices for same itinerary are so expensive, J premium is tiny)

when flying commercial (even in Y) airport VIP/VVIP services can allow one to avoid commercial airport terminals, while just flying J/F sometimes still means you have to wait in long queues and hang around in airports especially before flights

i think the bean is flying mainly in F domestic. my experience on ua and us has been that they are a small step up, and have little value. they do well as an award for the loyal frequent flyers. but to pay 3 x Y class is ubsurd.

now, biz class, and first on tatl and tatp is(are) a different world, particularly for flat seats. on a 7-17 hour trip, we save a day in recovery on each end. the food is a bit better, the wine a bit better but it is still crap(ok word?), but the flat beds make all the difference in the world. we could not reserve se ats on BA until 24 hrs in advance(with 6K of ticket), and then NO advance reserve. "you must come to the check in desk" god bless you, ba, and all your ba wishers.

I recently flew first class between Dallas and Seattle on a A320 and I wouldn't consider it worth the money. However, I flew from Hong Kong to Dallas in business class on a 77W and that was definitely worth it. For me, it depends on duration and the plane.

For me, if I miss a night's sleep because I 'm in Y, then I need an extra day's recovery at the other end. That puts a clear price on the value of J.

Depends on what I have to do once I land. If I'm taking an overnight flight and am expected to be functional on arrival then sleep is the only thing that matters about being up front. The booze and the food and the lounge are relatively nothing compared to that.

That said, it also depends on what the cost differential is and who shoulders that cost. I've flown across oceans in Y many times (even in a middle seat occasionally) and lived to tell the tale. Not as comfortable as the premium cabin but it worked out fine. When I can get a bargain to fly up front I will; being flexible on routes and destinations helps on that front.

Like anything else in life, first class is worth what you're willing to pay for it. If you think in terms of a long haul (10 hour or so) flight and have to pay $2k more for a business class as opposed to coach R/T then you're renting a bigger seat for $100/hour. Does that make sense to you? I guess it depends on how big of a deal that $2k is to you. If it means you're not going to eat for a week, it's probably not worth it. If it's a rounding error in your investment account it's a different calculation.

as Tchiowa says, some of us spent that difference on other things, possibly (all) on same trip.

My two cents...

I cannot sleep in an economy seat, and so the most important part of the F/J product is the opportunity to sleep, and so to make the most of the following day. If you are going to India for six months then perhaps that is not important, but if you have a seven-day vacation then losing nearly 15 per cent of that to catching up on sleep on the day after arrival is a serious matter, and so getting that day back is worth some serious money.

Next comes the fine dining experience, and here Air France wins hands down. I was once upgraded between Paris and Beijing, and the food service was as good as an upscale Paris restaurant. Other airlines were relatively disappointing: I have used British Airways (Club, as they call their business class product) a fair amount recently, and the catering was 'fine' but forgettable.

Alcohol is of course abundant in the premium cabins, but should be treated with caution since it can make you feel a good deal more ill in the environment of an aeroplane than on the ground. And since you lose much of your ability to taste subtle flavours when airborne, it is a criminal waste of good wine to consume it during the flight. So for me the main aspect of the drinks service is the provision of enough champagne to make me sleepy and so refresh me for the day after arrival (champagne generally does not give one a hangover).

Since all these benefits are offered in J, I don't really see the point of F.

i have been fine getting fairly short naps after arrival
so sleep aspect of choice depends on many variables
including things like arrival time and time zone change

high value business travel might pay for best/fastest F

Business class is better than first class was decades ago, at least the seat is.

I tend to enjoy business class but wouldn't pay much for it. One can sleep much better on a transatlantic red eye but economy class on the daytime JFK-LHR is better. Bottom line is that I might spend miles but not thousands of dollars. I have flown on company funds, though.

I wish I didn't see the value in first class and was happy to travel in economy. i'd be able to pay $1000 fares instead of $5000 ones!

On a longer international flight, its not about the better meal and free/better booze but about the ability to arrive well rested.

I'm travelling next month to India (from NYC) for work. My flight lands at 8am and i'll be headed straight to the office where i'll be working the full day then expected to go to a nice dinner that evening.

It'll still be a rough day, but the difference between Y & J is the difference between getting no 'real' sleep and me getting 6 hours of decent sleep. Also the difference between me being able to conduct productive meetings and being an incoherent space cadet for the first day.

The $3500 extra for J is a lot of money, but when its the difference between a productive trip and a non productive trip its a no brainer.

Domestic flights, i'll take the free upgrade when given but (with the exception of the premium JFK-LAX services) i'm not paying more than the bare minimum (recently paid $22 to upgrade r/t JFK-CHS) for an extra few inches of legroom.

I suspect that for many long-haul business travelers it's basically a cost-vs-time trade: some prefer this approach, others opt (or are required) to travel a day earlier (perhaps in Premium Economy if it's within corporate policy or if they're willing to pay the difference out of pocket) and use the extra 24 hrs at the destination to get better rested ... one additional night in a hotel, and one additional day of meals and incidental expenses, is typically a lot less than the difference between PE and J

It's the whole package for me. The queues are either non existent or very short, the desk staff smile and converse, the lounge is a space away from the hoards and you get space and time and help to board. Then the on board service feels many steps above getting fish, chicken or pasta thrown at you. Admittedly I'm talking intercontinental First here and I'm lucky enough to use it, but I'm not going back down the blunt end again for a gold pig.

jrl767, extra night is not always an option in terms of schedule

EK / EY having shower even helps with going straight into meeting

My company's policy sets a limit on the cost of the flight you can book depending on the destination and the time of year. If you spend less than this amount they give you 25% of the difference. When i was younger and single i'd fly coach, i'd take a 9 hour layover, i'd fly Kuwait airlines, all in the name of getting some money back. Now that i'm older and have a wife and child and have a salary i'm comfortable with, my preference is to fly in comfort and minimize travel time.

i'll pay for airport VIP service with tarmac transfers etc before J/F.

getting off paid F then standing in queue would never be fun.

If your employer were to offer you $5000 to fly on a Sunday AND give you Monday off, would you be willing to spend your Sunday in Y?

True but with some F you get that thrown in anyway. You hear a lot about CDG being a hell hole for transfers and general getting about but in F you get the limo and a PA. Never been in a queue there. Same with Munich or FRA.

I get it.

I fly a low budget carrier in the states because paying more for a ticket on a plane with more levels/frills is not worth it to me and I can tolerate pretty much any domestic length flight.

Taking my first international flight next month. I did a small upgrade to Premium Economy. Little more room, could pick a seat early so I could get a window, plug ins, etc. On a 9hour flight totally worth a couple hundred bucks. (Upgraded my Eurostar ticket as well. It was less than $20 to get the upgrade so it was worth it at that price)

First class would have cost me over a thousand more. Totally not worth it for free alcohol and a flat bed, at least to me.

I've basically concluded that I generally can't sleep at all on domestic flights and can maybe sleep 2-4 very restless hours on international flights. Granted, I've never flown J internationally so the flat bed might make a difference. However, I have flown domestic F and the slightly extra legroom and recline does not help me sleep at all. (On the other hand, I do seem to adjust very quickly to time changes as a result of my inability to sleep on planes.)

Based on all that, I might shell out a bit extra money for J or try to use miles for it on international flights, but I wouldn't pay multiple thousands over the Y price.

if employee doing mission critical etc work on sunday and monday
or employee told to go to airport to catch a flight 'right now'
or NOT employee, but sole proprietor, and same immediacy/value
= "not always an option" and there is first hand discussion on FT
"take Monday off" - when salary/revenue is thousands/millions?
time (and the value/revenue of time) and revenue vs costs

on arrival at those airports, can pay for tarmac transfer to private lounge

IIRC LH FCT services target outbound passengers (arrivals need it more..)

The last 2 trips I have done to India, I have flown J, ( I am only in India for 2 days)
It was well worth it (got great deals because of a sale started by Qatar)
The thought especially of not having to worry about getting to sleep on the return from Bom (1.55am) was worth it alone. and the fact that since I dont check bags, knowing that the overhead bin would be empty made it even better.

Granted I dont do this everytime I am going, but it sure feels great when I do

There are other threads on this topic. Everyone is different, and where and with whom you travel are also large factors. Upgrading domestically in Europe often simply means an unoccupied middle seat, which no is not worth the cost they charge for it.

I lost status a few years ago and have been relegated to economy or paid first for domestic US. I am a large guy, and for me it is a big difference. I have noticed it far more since I have been stuck in the back so much more - it really turns a flight into a very miserable experience. At the same time I don't think it is sometimes worth what they try to charge, and I have started doing the extra seat thing. Of course, it depends on aircraft. I can take a E170 or 190 for a few hours in coach a lot easier (wider seats) than a 737.

As a leisure traveler and someone whose time may not be worth as much as some others here on the boards, those extra amenities like transfers and such don't mean as much. Lounge access would be real nice, but I can entertain myself in an airport a lot easier than I can deal with sitting in a cramped seat. But again, everyone is different.

That is it for me, too. But what really got me to overcome my reluctance to pay more for business class on international flights, which I mostly fly for work, was not just the seat or that the experience could be nice, but that I had several absolutely miserable experiences in coach due to other passengers - e.g., belligerent drunk, odiferous seatmate, complaint about reclining seat on an overnight TATL flight. After the last time one of those things occurred, I thought I had to get out of international economy or I could just not take these international trips anymore. Getting there a day early would not make that any better.

I still rarely pay too much more for business class - one of the things I did was find out about FT and learn more about upgrading and looking for better deals. I have never had a bad experience in international business class, and I certainly can't say that about international economy.

Cloudship, some like jetblue allow anyone to buy extra (Y) seat with no problem. was interesting several jetblue staff seemed completely surprised when i had done so. you raise great additional factors/points in how people make determinations / value perceptions.

Ever wonder how many people who are in First actually paid for it? And please, don't start with the points routine because every single FF mile involved money changing hands at some point including those supposedly "free" ones IF you SPEND a certain amount of money using a credit card within a designated period.

What is even more interesting is how much First costs in terms of the number of FF miles you need for it vs. simply paying for it.

It was "worth it " to me when I flew from Florida to Perth, Australia, last year, and it was worth it when I flew to Europe this year.

For what you get vs. being "back there" which "gets there" the same time you do and whether or not you've figured out how to actually get sleep "back there" which a lot of people have, in fact, figured out...First has to be one of the biggest rip-offs going but so are a lot of things we do in life.

As I read the OP post I couldn't help but think they were trying to convince themselves that FIRST is not worth it because it is either rare or unobtainable for them

To me there is no question or doubt.....I fly FIRST as much as I can and it is worth every cent or mile I use regardless of the airline, plane or length of flight.

I pay for Business and First fares so I can go on whatever airline I like, stay wherever I like and not be restricted. In Australia you have to pay a percentage fee to use a credit card of about 1.5 to 3%. I figure with that extra amount I'd have to pay, I can just use my regular ATM card or cash and get the best price I can and just put the money I would of had to pay for that surcharge towards my airfares.

My husband is self-employed, so we pay for all our own travel.

For us, J is worth it (especially when flying TATL), because it means we receive better service from the moment we arrive at the airport, the opportunity to (more or less, let's be real here) relax in a lounge, rather than roam about in a crowded, loud airport (though there are oases -- a steakhouse at JFK's T8 with decent to good food, some lovely shops to peruse at FCO, that sort of thing).

Most of all, there is the more personalized service on board (when that is done right, it's a joy), and, of course, the bed. Ultimately, what you are really paying thousands of dollars for is the opportunity to have a decent night's sleep (often followed by a good quality cuppa or an espresso immediately following), to soften the blow of jet lag, aches and pains to the body after being on a long-haul, that sort of thing.

On a good flight, with good seats and service, you almost want it to be longer. Whether this is all worth the price is, I suppose, a factor of personal finances, as well as what you value in travel (and in life in general). For us, as middle-aged, middle class passengers who are financially stable, the answer is J is a good value for the money, and upgrading to F with miles (or money, when it is a decent proposition) is certainly worth it.

We also fly J when traveling to LatAm, and almost always fly F domestically (but that is for health reasons involving me, so a slightly different, and very personal, decision-making process).

Sadly, moving up a class or two in the cabin may not end those things. I have had my share of stinkers, drunks and complainers in biz and first as well. As a matter of fact, there tends to be more complainers up front who mistake being in the higher class cabin with being a VIP. However, they are all marginally easier to take if you are not cramped in like you are in steerage.

Would you pay 300 to sit in F? My guess would be yes. So, what about the people for whom 3000 is equivalent to 300 for you?

It's about % of income. If you earn 100k per year, 3000 dollars is 3% of your income..that's too much for a plane ticket. But if you earn 1 million per year, 3000 is .3% of your income...perfectly reasonable. That's the same as 300 to you.

I don't earn quite that much, but my frequent travels are paid for by my employer. I get to keep the miles. As such, I am not investing ANYTHING out of pocket most of the time..so for me, it's pretty much 0% of my income. Even better deal! However, sometimes I will op up out of pocket on domestic flights over 3 hours for a couple of hundred. I think it's worth it to be comfortable and to not have to ride with the kettles in the back.

Proudelitist, while others who earn little choose to spend it on F (etc)
and some who may have billions spend little (may be why theyre wealthy)

different people value different things a different amount
income/worth is only one factor impacting perceived value

Husband wanted a new tv and was eyeing a $5000 one. I said he was nuts and we weren't spending that much on a tv. Later on I thought about it and thought it was weird that I wasn't willing to spend $5,000 on a tv yet I'd happily pay $5000 for a single airfare. I guess what we spend is determined on what we value.