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Regarding your question about which airline to use the points on - in the list I saw AirFrance (Skyteam), BA (OW) & Air Canada (Star) which seems a bit weird. I would guess that the airline you can choose is whoever gave you the points in the first place or maybe an alliance partner - the FT experts can weigh in on that.
In most instances, I cannot afford to fly Biz even though I like the extra space (as someone who is overweight). I have done 14-15 hour sectors in economy and it's not as bad as it seems. Having a quiet cabin without too much hustle & bustle makes it a lot easier - as does having considerate, clean co-passengers. Having said that, twice this year I got the opportunity to pay for limited upgrades - you get lounge access & full cabin service without chauffeur service and mileage. On QR I paid $500 to upgrade to biz on NRT-DOH (almost 12 hours) and that was a no-brainer. It was great value for a really comfortable product (2-2-2 is completely fine when there is no one beside you :D). The other was a $1600 upgrade for Biz on EY from JFK to AUH. While this was way more expensive, I chose to go for it based on the following points a) I was returning from a whirlwind trip to NY and knew I would be exhausted b) I had a really hectic week at work ahead and wanted to be as rested as possible c) A chance to try A380 Upper deck biz on a long-haul sector I enjoyed both tremendously and would like to do it more regularly - that is based on its value compared to my requirements. Also, I flew domestic F in the US because I had two pieces of luggage which would have cost me $60 on Delta and the fare difference was $75 between Y & F (SEA-LAX). Ro |
Originally Posted by Proudelitist
(Post 27023814)
Sadly, moving up a class or two in the cabin may not end those things. I have had my share of stinkers, drunks and complainers in biz and first as well. As a matter of fact, there tends to be more complainers up front who mistake being in the higher class cabin with being a VIP. However, they are all marginally easier to take if you are not cramped in like you are in steerage.
Originally Posted by Kagehitokiri
(Post 27027778)
Proudelitist, while others who earn little choose to spend it on F (etc)
and some who may have billions spend little (may be why theyre wealthy) different people value different things a different amount income/worth is only one factor impacting perceived value |
Originally Posted by RohanDXB
(Post 27031688)
Also, I flew domestic F in the US because I had two pieces of luggage which would have cost me $60 on Delta and the fare difference was $75 between Y & F (SEA-LAX). Ro |
This all pertains to Delta.
I hope I never have to fly coach internationally (long-haul) again - I usually am pressed for time and it is a 'night a day difference' being able to sleep laying down versus being in coach and then getting off the plane to go immediately to meetings. When I fly coach, I need a day to recuperate, when I fly business, I don't. I've found that for me and my work expenses, the best of both words is to by an upgradeable ticket with work funds and then upgrade using my miles. For short-haul international (less than 4 hours), I think 1st class is a bit of a waste as they don't serve you a decent meal usually and the planes on many of these routes aren't yet upgraded so the difference between 1st class and delta comfort was actually negligible for me over the last year...< $100 for an upgrade = sure...>$100 = meh For domestic flights, delta comfort suffices perfectly, but i love 1st class upgrades. Won't spend a lot of miles or dollars on getting into 1st. Long and the short of it is that for me, with my current salary, I would never pay outright for 1st/business class, but am always looking for a way to get up there if it isn't too expensive. One thing that hasn't really been mentioned is the EXPERIENCE of 1st/business. The majority of time I sit in front, I often end up meeting some pretty interesting people and have had opportunities develop from that EXPERIENCE....only thing that happens in coach for me are negative events like getting exposed to TB or having to deal with the horror of a person next to me who should have been forced to buy two tickets because of their weight. |
For me it depends on the situation. I'm of similar height (5' 11'') and it sounds like similar build but I've also had knee and shoulder surgery which has a big impact on me when I fly in Y.
For shorter flights it's not a problem (especially being UA silver which usually nets me free E+) but for longer flights (transcon and longer) the ever tightening pitch and shoulder room in Y just doesn't bode well for me (my knee gets stiff and swollen, my shoulder bumps into people, etc.). The others things are icing on the cake (free bag check if needed, lounge access on certain routes, food / drink, etc.) Because of that I try my best to get up front through miles, cash, instruments, etc., and I find these days that through FCM you can usually find F fares for not much more than the Y fares is either at the time of booking or taking a TOD/FCM at check-in. Obviously for international it's a little different but even there I've found opportunities to either get P fares, use miles/cash, or straight miles to get the extra room (or worst case snag a high quality E+/MCE/C+ seat). |
i'm 6'3. it's always worth it for me. My passion in life is travel; but i would dread it before because i didnt have the means to fly business/first. now that i can afford it, i enjoy the journey almost as much as the destination!
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Let me offer another upside.
When a flight is cancelled due to mechanical problems or whathave you, holding an F BP can allow you to avoid the huge clusterF at the CS desk and get rebooked by the agents at the lounge. This saves literally hours and frustration. |
Originally Posted by Proudelitist
(Post 27040713)
Let me offer another upside. When a flight is cancelled due to mechanical problems or whathave you, holding an F BP can allow you to avoid the huge clusterF at the CS desk and get rebooked by the agents at the lounge. This saves literally hours and frustration.
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helps when it is F on good/top airline rather than not great airline
some airlines give top tier status to those prepaying certain amount a year DL Jet Card has dedicated phone number, can use for commercial flights commercial passengers using airport VIP services may get help wit IRROPs |
I think the only time I really value upper class seats is when I need to get some sleep before arrival. Even then, it's not enough value for me to want to pay out of pocket. It would be cheaper to arrive a day earlier and just sleep in a nice hotel bed.
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I guess I'm still kind of frugal, even if I'd be using miles rather than cash for a premium cabin. For a domestic (USA) flight, or any flight under 10 hours, coach is fine and the "you're getting there at the same time as the premium cabins" applies. Even if it's overnight, I'll usually sleep enough, especially in a window seat.
For a flight of more than 10 hours or if it's a flight with a lot of segments, I'll try to find a saver award ticket in a premium cabin, but I won't be heartbroken if I can't. When I do a big solo international trip, I actually like to start the trip in coach -- it gets me "in the mood" and it eases me into the feel of my destination, since I'm near a bunch of other people from, or speaking the language of, the place I'm headed to. Then if the trip back is long enough, I might spring for the premium award, which kind of mitigates the sorrow of the trip ending. When I flew to Madagascar via three overnights (JFK-LHR, LHR-DXB, DXB-NBO), it was definitely worth the miles to go in business, so I could sleep better, use the lounge showers, and be better-rested for my days in each place on the way. And when I took my girlfriend to Asia, business class was worth it (especially on the old 90K US Airways award) because she doesn't sleep well on planes and we went overnight to ADD and then overnight to BKK and on to NRT. I'd like to try a super-premium first class (like on Etihad or Emirates or Singapore Suites) just for the experience (as I recently did to try the KE Kosmo 2.0 suite), but I wouldn't say I have to have it every time. I don't think I'd justify paying cash for a premium cabin, though. A couple thousand dollars, or even a $500 upgrade, is a lot more than I'd pay for the equivalent hours in a nice hotel room. Seth |
Originally Posted by sethweinstein
(Post 27060485)
equivalent hours in a nice hotel room
some hotels guarantee 24-hour stays, or longer, or have early checkin / late checkout either guaranteed or if available i find a lot more value in incredible accommodations (can be expensive, but does not have to be) outside cities but i understand the perspective of plane travel being 'required' so minimizing discomfort during it. and some spend little time in their hotel room. |
If your not talking about upgrades to Business or First with points but actually paying money for the tickets, i'm in a situation where i can afford business and first class sometimes
But i do find it hard to justify the extra cost and often will fly economy The bottom line is even in the very nicest first class, your still stuck in a restricted space for a period of time, yes it's a bit nicer restricted space, but it's not like your getting full body massages with happy endings and watching tv on 100 inch screens with DTS X surround sound. Often your asleep for a large amount of the flight anyway I just prefer to spend money on nicer hotel rooms/more expensive entertainment options at your chosen destination If your rich enough that a first class ticket means as much to you as losing 5 cents means to the average person, then fair enough. I'm not quite at that point yet :) |
Originally Posted by Peterpack
(Post 27072359)
If your not talking about upgrades to Business or First with points but actually paying money for the tickets, i'm in a situation where i can afford business and first class sometimes
But i do find it hard to justify the extra cost and often will fly economy The bottom line is even in the very nicest first class, your still stuck in a restricted space for a period of time, yes it's a bit nicer restricted space, but it's not like your getting full body massages with happy endings and watching tv on 100 inch screens with DTS X surround sound. Often your asleep for a large amount of the flight anyway I just prefer to spend money on nicer hotel rooms/more expensive entertainment options at your chosen destination If your rich enough that a first class ticket means as much to you as losing 5 cents means to the average person, then fair enough. I'm not quite at that point yet :) I had a 37 hour trip a few weeks back, all booked in Economy +..but when I had the chance to buy F on a segment for 250 dollars, I took it. It was only a 5 hour segment, but on a long trip like that any comfort you can get is worth it. I will sometimes buy F and J right out of pocket...but it depends on the totality of the trip. I tend not to for domestic under 3 hours though. But that money seems less outrageous the more hours I am facing. |
and ~$250 upgrades are becoming more and more common
some examples for me > when flying as 2 pax in Y where its 3 seats together, have bought extra seat $1500 per eos airlines all-J after buy one get one free in 2006 amazing, access to quintessentially (dinner at mortons club london) i dont think there were any super cheap nonstop transatlantic Y then more than that for Y nonstop transatlantic (should've checked buying miles) $2200 per domestic transcon F when Y was $1500 per for 2 middle seats did a walk up booking once, should have asked how much for F upgrade |
Originally Posted by Proudelitist
(Post 27040713)
Let me offer another upside.
When a flight is cancelled due to mechanical problems or whathave you, holding an F BP can allow you to avoid the huge clusterF at the CS desk and get rebooked by the agents at the lounge. This saves literally hours and frustration. I have been met at a number of airports as i got off the plane to meet another connection. I had no idea they would do that. The first time through Kuala Lumpur a MH staff member approached us as we were shopping but before we went to the lounge to ask if we were Mr & Mrs Annalisa 12. I said we were and they replied "we saw you arrived but we didn't know where you were so we wanted to show you to the lounge'. |
Originally Posted by Annalisa12
(Post 27077128)
That's one of the reasons I like to travel up front. Especially if I am long haul on my own.
I have been met at a number of airports as i got off the plane to meet another connection. I had no idea they would do that. The first time through Kuala Lumpur a MH staff member approached us as we were shopping but before we went to the lounge to ask if we were Mr & Mrs Annalisa 12. I said we were and they replied "we saw you arrived but we didn't know where you were so we wanted to show you to the lounge'. |
Flying MEL-LHR is a no brainer. Always fly at the pointy end - in new B787-9s at half the price charged by EH, QF, SQ and the like. What airline? Vietnam Airlines. They even give you free accommodation, meals in city restaurants and limo service on long SGN layovers.
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Originally Posted by jeebus
(Post 27059666)
I think the only time I really value upper class seats is when I need to get some sleep before arrival. Even then, it's not enough value for me to want to pay out of pocket. It would be cheaper to arrive a day earlier and just sleep in a nice hotel bed.
That being said, I still will look for opportunities to fly in a premium cabin when I can, but it's more for the experience and comfort than getting some sleep. And doing all those flights in Y definitely makes me appreciate it more :) And I'll agree that I personally would probably never pay for domestic F - for a flight that short, I'm willing to suck it up and save the money. |
when rest day not possible, is policy more flexible?
do any of these policies apply to people involved in super high revenue deals? |
Let's put it this way....
1. I fly a LOT. 2. If I didn't fly much, I wouldn't mind flying Y. 3. If I couldn't fly F, I wouldn't fly much. |
Originally Posted by Kagehitokiri
(Post 27077242)
paid VIP services (for commercial pax) can be better/equal at some airports
I found the service I have received amazing at some airports. |
Originally Posted by Annalisa12
(Post 27091119)
I actually didn't pay for any VIP service.
I found the service I have received amazing at some airports. In Indonesia on Garuda they assigned a girl to process my boarding pass, carry my carry-on to the lounge, stay with me to serve me in the lounge. |
Originally Posted by Tchiowa
(Post 27091305)
If you're in F, absolutely. Chiangi has a separate door from the curb into the terminal for First Class (and Solitaire) including someone to take your bags. Sit in a lounge while they process your boarding pass then a back door into passport control so you skip the line.
In Indonesia on Garuda they assigned a girl to process my boarding pass, carry my carry-on to the lounge, stay with me to serve me in the lounge. |
delete. wrong thread after login glitch, again.
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Originally Posted by Bootman4U
(Post 27023720)
Ever wonder how many people who are in First actually paid for it?
I think there's a lot of paid J travel out there, and then some subset of those people use upgrade instruments to get to three-cabin F. There's perhaps *less* paid F travel, but if J is the moneymaker then the airline is still doing quite fine when people upgrade J->F. At a couple of my large-firm jobs, we'd occasionally get a promo email about confirmed upgrades to F when we bought J. Sadly I never managed to snag the routes/dates when it applied. My paid J travel was South America or secondary Europe markets where there were only two cabins to begin with. On some routes, airlines also seek to sell J seats to leisure travelers, something they didn't seem to care about doing the past. Pricing in the $2500-3000 R/T range for Europe, for example. (With enough restrictions to segment them from business travelers, of course.) In the past, more of those seats would stick around for upgraders...now they're getting sold. |
Originally Posted by pinniped
(Post 27104232)
I actually think it's higher than some people might guess, albeit with many travelers on corporate discount fares. (Large-corp discounts for premium cabin can be high...30-40% off the rack rate shown on an Internet search.)
I think there's a lot of paid J travel out there, and then some subset of those people use upgrade instruments to get to three-cabin F. There's perhaps *less* paid F travel, but if J is the moneymaker then the airline is still doing quite fine when people upgrade J->F. At a couple of my large-firm jobs, we'd occasionally get a promo email about confirmed upgrades to F when we bought J. Sadly I never managed to snag the routes/dates when it applied. My paid J travel was South America or secondary Europe markets where there were only two cabins to begin with. On some routes, airlines also seek to sell J seats to leisure travelers, something they didn't seem to care about doing the past. Pricing in the $2500-3000 R/T range for Europe, for example. (With enough restrictions to segment them from business travelers, of course.) In the past, more of those seats would stick around for upgraders...now they're getting sold. |
Sometimes 1st is cheaper than economy for my flights....that is always sweet!
I've been hitting about 35% upgrades nationally with delta. |
Originally Posted by vanillabean
(Post 26991471)
I am not sure I would appreciate first/business class. It’s comfortable certainly, and the extra room is nice; I am six feet tall, the average height of men in say Holland, but somehow I’m just fine in coach. Being slim, I’m not impacted much sideways or forward.
Free drinks and various other perks surely come in handy too. But when I flew first class once in my twenties, the temptation of keeping the drinks coming may have caused some of my enjoyment to be blacked out. Going to a good restaurant from time to time is worthwhile, as is in general going somewhere on vacation to unwind and being open to the world around you. Museums, taking a horse and buggy ride through the park, a really nice hotel. But stepping up from economy on a plane? Is it any better than an airport lounge with the notable exception than alcohol is free? Even if I could lie down and sleep, wouldn’t I want to remember my time here? Is it unreasonable to consider that part of the fun? You reach the gap in quality quickly; an upgrade tends to revolve around quantity. More legroom, square footage Vegas-style. And does more distance to your neighbor seat make the noise any less irritating when he rattles the entire inside of the bag for every potato chip that he picks up individually? Like it is never going to stop. Or when he flips through a magazine one page at a time, trying to find something to read on the open page and yet at the same time have the fingers ready for the next. It’s unlikely that there’s a correlation between class and manners, or just that you’re more relaxed when your seating is more comfortable. Maybe that’s what I'm afraid of now that my wife thinks it could be fun once again trying out first class. I’m sure it could be, hopefully. Stretching out and flushing all those years of cramped economy out of the system. Relaxing your muscles, getting the personal Pan Am experience by some pretty flight attendant. Wow, did I really say that? I must be dreaming! I have nothing to whine about. We just got a chunk of free points due to some inconvenience that an airline’s delayed flight put us through. Which airline, do you think, should we spend the upgrade on? Air France, British Airways, Air Canada come to mind. Thank you very much. this being said i have the same sentiment as you. i used to be an airline employee so travelling j isn't much of a novelty, and i am just fine for any length flight in y as long as i get boozed up and take 2-3 advil night with the meal. how you found less enjoyment in getting blackout in j is confusing for me, the entire point of flying in j is having someone facilitate you getting blacked out. lately i've started questioning whether using my miles for ultra long haul j is the best choice...i mean i can have 2 long haul trips and a valuable intra-north america short haul redemption for the price of that 1 ultra long j. while deliberately dressing trashy, getting blitzed off raki on tk, and loudly laughing at some will farrell movie is neat, it's even more neat to get 3 trips out of my miles. anyways the last redemption was for bae who never flies up front. that's most likely solely how i'll redeem. anyways ac af ba are a terrible 3 options but not the most awful in the world either....can't get anything on br, nh, oz, sq, tk, os? |
Originally Posted by pinniped
(Post 27104232)
I think there's a lot of paid J travel out there, and then some subset of those people use upgrade instruments to get to three-cabin F. There's perhaps *less* paid F travel, but if J is the moneymaker then the airline is still doing quite fine when people upgrade J->F. my seat mate and i talked for a large portion of the flight. she revealed that she was travelling to do qc on a piece of equipment they were manufacturing in some far distant country. her flight, booked that morning, cost her company $11,000usd. i said "woah". she said "meh, that piece of equipment is worth $8 million and it's to go on a larger piece of equipment that costs us $44 million. the production delays per day cost more than my flight". i then told her i was an employee travelling nonrev. she laughed and hi fived me. nice lady. moral of the story: labor and travel expenses are virtually the last worry for capital intensive industries. and yeah there are 5 percenters out there who will just pay (def not $11,000, more like $5-7k for a flight that sells in y for $1500) cause that amount is of no object to them. i had inlaws like that. |
I have never flied in first class, but I understand why some people need it, I think prices are usually reasonable in this case
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Originally Posted by sethweinstein
(Post 27060485)
... is a lot more than I'd pay for the equivalent hours in a nice hotel room.
For myself, a 50m2 suite does not provide any more appreciable/realized comfort than does a 25m2 room. Not as much as going from 35" pitch to 70" of space. At standard body build I don't 'suffer' in Y seats - did it all in my first 5 years of serious flying. But I have physical restlessness and if I'm comfortable with the price of premium, why put up with the discomfort? Booked companion J seats for my gf next month hoping to flip her to the dark side. Hope she doesn't get addicted to it too much too fast :D |
Originally Posted by deniah
(Post 27111506)
Booked companion J seats for my gf next month hoping to flip her to the dark side. Hope she doesn't get addicted to it too much too fast :D She will be addicted VERY easily! |
Originally Posted by Annalisa12
(Post 27111597)
Like Jerry said.. once you've had first class you can't go back to coach.
She will be addicted VERY easily! When I first started flying (occasionally, just for vacation) I had no problem flying coach. When I started flying for work and the company put me in business class for TATL I was ecstatic. After a while if I ended up in coach (say on a short domestic US flight) I was uncomfortable and unhappy. Status hit and suddenly I'm moving up to first more often than not. Now I'm disappointed if I end up stuck in business class. Once you get used to it........ |
I didn't have a problem flying in coach back in the days when it was relatively easy to be sure you had an empty seat next to you. But those days are long gone.
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Originally Posted by Annalisa12
(Post 27111597)
Like Jerry said.. once you've had first class you can't go back to coach.
She will be addicted VERY easily! |
It's kind of a no brainer when you're using miles at the saver level- since you're effectively paying the equivalent of deep-discount business. For instance, a 100k miles us-Europe in J at .015/mile = $1500.
It also depends on whether you consider your mileage balance to be a finite resource or not. And whether $1500 is a lot of money to you. |
Originally Posted by Tchiowa
(Post 27111900)
Truer words were never spoke.
When I first started flying (occasionally, just for vacation) I had no problem flying coach. When I started flying for work and the company put me in business class for TATL I was ecstatic. After a while if I ended up in coach (say on a short domestic US flight) I was uncomfortable and unhappy. Status hit and suddenly I'm moving up to first more often than not. Now I'm disappointed if I end up stuck in business class. Once you get used to it........ Before I flew a lot, I would just choose flights based on schedule and price. Now aircraft and cabin are factors, too. Flying MIA-LAX later this year and was sure to book the 77W (which I found for $119 each way :D ) and then did the mileage upgrade to J for me and the wife. She will be very pleased. ^ |
Originally Posted by Annalisa12
(Post 27111597)
Like Jerry said.. once you've had first class you can't go back to coach.
She will be addicted VERY easily! Yes, it's better than Y. But I certainly wouldn't call it luxury, and I certainly wouldn't pay thousands (or even hundreds) of dollars for it. Now that I'm semi-retired and all of my travel is self funded, it's the back of the bus for me, and it really doesn't bother me. For what I would pay for a single business-class upgrade, I can stay for three weeks in a decent, comfortable hotel room. Nothing flash, but comfortable. A week's trip with a J flight, or a month's trip with a few hours in Y? No contest. One trip in F or four trips in Y? Also no contest. Flying in Y helps me to preserve my (reasonable, but not limitless) resources of points and miles, as well as my (reasonable, but not limitless) resources of cash. This thread kind of begs the question: How much hard cash would you really be prepared to part with, to get that upgrade? My answers: Intra-Europe flight, or short domestic US: $10 maybe. 8-hour TATL, Y-to-J: about $75 max. It's just not worth any more to me. $2000 to sleep on a 60cm wide fold-out bed, in a cabin full of 40 other people coughing and snoring and farting? No thanks. I'm happy down the back, drinking beer. |
Value is certainly based on trip.
Red-Eye lie-flat after 4 days working(LAX-ATL). Awesome. However saying that some of the 10-14 hour flights and are garnering 4, 6 or 8K round trip? It's nice but it's not THAT nice. I'd rather have another motorcycle I can enjoy whenever I want at that price. ATL-MKE in an MD88 for hundreds more? Meh. |
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