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Old Oct 30, 2015 | 10:24 am
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Often1
If OP has any good statistics on the # of security incidents resulting in off-loading, it would be great if he posted them. Otherwise, this is just another media hype incident which seems pretty clear:

1. Must obey crewmember instructions.
2. Don't film or record crew members onboard (not only a safety & security issue, but there are plenty of whacko stalkers out there).

Seems like protocol was followed and this wasn't the FA's ultimate decision. Captain and law enforcement involved. While it's the Captain's final judgment, he apparently took advice from the cops too. Sounds like the decision to boot the other 8 had nothing to do with the FA.

The "animals" comment is uncalled for an unprofessional, but it has nothing to do with the security issues. Can't say the FA was wrong, just unprofessional.

Unlike a bus, you can't pull over to the curb at 35,000 feet and give someone the boot. Peoples' behavior tends not to improve with the passage of time.
I would question the your claim not to film. The law is quite clear on it as far as the police is concerned. Now, where the FA is asserting governmental authority, I don't think it may a stretch to say there is a constitutional right to record her in her official capacity and also to gather evidence to defend criminal charges and bring civil claims.
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Old Oct 30, 2015 | 11:22 am
  #32  
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People who have underpaid, semi-skilled service jobs requiring constant interaction with the general public are going to occasionally resort to power-tripping when they can get away with it. Imagine if terrestrial waitresses or bartenders were suddenly authorized by the U.S. government to eject patrons from their restaurant according to their discretion about safety risks posed to other patrons. Arbitrary restaurant ejections of drunks, loud and unruly and entitled families, and the moderately argumentative would immediately become a media theme because controversy / inflamed tempers / familiar grievances -> hits.

I haven't flown outside of business or first for at least a decade and like everyone else I get frustrated and annoyed by airports. But I can't even imagine (remember?) how a person who agonizes over a $25 checked baggage fee must feel about boarding last, or how dehumanizing it must be for a FA to enforce baggage gate checks on angry travelers with so little at stake. The opposing incentives and psychic friction are only accelerating as commercial aviation sector economics turns FAs into food and beverage salespeople and baggage police.

To properly answer the OP, yes, this is clearly getting covered more and further proof that there are no professional consequences emboldens more FAs to take out their (understandable) bad moods on people they just happen not to like. The truly bad actors from both groups (passengers, FAs) provide cover for these probably-avoidable escalations to end with police reports. It probably only ends at mood-detecting Robot FAs equipped with laughing gas and tranquilizer darts.
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Old Oct 30, 2015 | 11:25 am
  #33  
 
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Originally Posted by Tchiowa
Contract law. For example, United's Contract of Carriage says, in part:
Sorry but "interference" clause is too ambiguous, unless clearly outlined as what constitute interference. Remember that contract law rest on the basis, that ambiguity in the contract benefits the party who did not draft it.

Hence short of obvious interference (i.e. setting fire, smoking, cause hurt, damage equipment, etc.), it's very difficult to use this clause.

I'm not saying who's right here (unless more witness come forth). Just how terms of contract are interpreted (crap I need a vacation, been reading too many contacts).
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Old Oct 30, 2015 | 11:32 am
  #34  
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Originally Posted by slawecki
sounds about like the right number. in over 50 years of flying, and thousands of flights, i have never seen any FA misbehavior.

i have received a lot of kindnesses from both FA,s and passengers. TSA is another matter.
Passengers are another matter. I've never seen TSA do anything bad. Mostly it's the tin foil hat types that rail against them.

In this case, the passenger should have just moved to let other people board. It's common courtesy and yes you have to follow directions of the FA. The good story is that maybe the kids in the family will learn that if you're a (*&^, you lose some of your vacation.
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Old Oct 30, 2015 | 11:48 am
  #35  
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Originally Posted by philip0
People who have underpaid, semi-skilled service jobs requiring constant interaction with the general public are going to occasionally resort to power-tripping when they can get away with it. Imagine if terrestrial waitresses or bartenders were suddenly authorized by the U.S. government to eject patrons from their restaurant according to their discretion about safety risks posed to other patrons. Arbitrary restaurant ejections of drunks, loud and unruly and entitled families, and the moderately argumentative would immediately become a media theme because controversy / inflamed tempers / familiar grievances -> hits.

I haven't flown outside of business or first for at least a decade and like everyone else I get frustrated and annoyed by airports. But I can't even imagine (remember?) how a person who agonizes over a $25 checked baggage fee must feel about boarding last, or how dehumanizing it must be for a FA to enforce baggage gate checks on angry travelers with so little at stake. The opposing incentives and psychic friction are only accelerating as commercial aviation sector economics turns FAs into food and beverage salespeople and baggage police.

To properly answer the OP, yes, this is clearly getting covered more and further proof that there are no professional consequences emboldens more FAs to take out their (understandable) bad moods on people they just happen not to like. The truly bad actors from both groups (passengers, FAs) provide cover for these probably-avoidable escalations to end with police reports. It probably only ends at mood-detecting Robot FAs equipped with laughing gas and tranquilizer darts.
Well said.
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Old Oct 30, 2015 | 12:22 pm
  #36  
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Originally Posted by TMM1982
Basically, FA's based in the US are the worst in the business. They are rude, act like they are performing brain surgery, and they look so unhappy one would assume they are going through labor if they weren't performing their duties.

On the international airlines I've flown, I've had nothing but friendly and courteous FA's, not to mention the fact that they dress like women and appear to have seen the inside of a gym recently.
Or not.

http://www.foxnews.com/travel/2015/1...m/?intcmp=hpff
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Old Oct 30, 2015 | 12:28 pm
  #37  
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While I've certainly had rude FA's before, I've never had an "incident" with one, nor do I plan on having one. That being said, some of the above posters are correct, the issue is with US FA's. Other than isolated cases there is no "big problems" with FA's in any other country. Many seem to deal with getting out of their duties by using the "only here for your safety" or even the "9/11" excuses.
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Old Oct 30, 2015 | 12:45 pm
  #38  
 
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Originally Posted by SeriouslyLost
Please cite the legal basis for both those statements, and the sub clause - because no matter how many times you repeat it, it doesn't become true.
Hate to jump into the middle of a thread, but largely they are state laws, almost every state passed a law like this post 9/11. That's why they don't need a federal marshal to arrest you if you really went off the rails.

Strangely enough, these apply to ground crew or anybody who has responsibility for the safety of the airline, even as a check on each other. I used to keep a copy of our state's law in the pilot lounge because we had too many incidents of stressed out cargo pilots trying to cut corners.

Also, gotta say, the converse is true as well, just because you express skepticism about something doesn't mean it's not true.
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Old Oct 30, 2015 | 12:50 pm
  #39  
 
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Originally Posted by airplanegod
While I've certainly had rude FA's before, I've never had an "incident" with one, nor do I plan on having one. That being said, some of the above posters are correct, the issue is with US FA's. Other than isolated cases there is no "big problems" with FA's in any other country. Many seem to deal with getting out of their duties by using the "only here for your safety" or even the "9/11" excuses.
Agreed, the only time I've had problems with an FA, it was exactly one person, but it was multiple times. The last time, she tried to kick me off the plane. That earned one of United's regionals an FAA complaint and a whole lot of oversight they didn't want on pre-takeoff procedures. I can't say that will usually be the result of an FAA complaint, but given I used to be a consultant to the FAA on safety procedures, she chose the wrong person to argue policy with.
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Old Oct 30, 2015 | 12:58 pm
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Andy Big Bear
Agreed, the only time I've had problems with an FA, it was exactly one person, but it was multiple times. The last time, she tried to kick me off the plane. That earned one of United's regionals an FAA complaint and a whole lot of oversight they didn't want on pre-takeoff procedures. I can't say that will usually be the result of an FAA complaint, but given I used to be a consultant to the FAA on safety procedures, she chose the wrong person to argue policy with.
Spill the beans, please. Why did she single you out?
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Old Oct 30, 2015 | 1:09 pm
  #41  
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Bottomline is that whoever trains the Emirates FA's should be hired to come to the US and train all the FA's here. Shape up or ship out should be the motto. Guaranteed all these American FA posers will be out on their fat lazy behinds within a month.
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Old Oct 30, 2015 | 1:10 pm
  #42  
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Originally Posted by philip0
Spill the beans, please. Why did she single you out?
Probably b/c he asked for an extra bag of peanuts, was told it was $10.00 cash only, and dude went postal.
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Old Oct 30, 2015 | 1:13 pm
  #43  
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Originally Posted by MaxBuck
1) The passenger is clearly lying. A captain would not make an emergency landing because an economy passenger simply used a business class bathroom. She was clearly unruly either before entering the bathroom or after. My guess is she pushed her way past other passengers and slammed the bathroom door shut. And when she came out, she was being aggressive and non-repentant.

2) You're citing an airline called Niki? You may as well use the German Wings crash as evidence why it's no longer safe to fly.
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Old Oct 30, 2015 | 1:21 pm
  #44  
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Originally Posted by philip0
Spill the beans, please. Why did she single you out?
Inquiring minds wanted to know...

Im guessing this:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/pract...yes-again.html
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Old Oct 30, 2015 | 1:54 pm
  #45  
 
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Originally Posted by MaxBuck
Originally Posted by TMM1982
Basically, FA's based in the US are the worst in the business. They are rude, act like they are performing brain surgery, and they look so unhappy one would assume they are going through labor if they weren't performing their duties.

On the international airlines I've flown, I've had nothing but friendly and courteous FA's, not to mention the fact that they dress like women and appear to have seen the inside of a gym recently.
Or not.

http://www.foxnews.com/travel/2015/1...m/?intcmp=hpff
Originally Posted by farnorthtrader
3 million people fly everyday without incident; we get reports like this maybe once per day. I would say, almost without exception, by simple logic, that there is a good reason to toss them. If it was simply crews on power trips, there would be a whole lot more people being tossed.
Once per day or week on US airlines, a few but very rarely anywhere else. There's something to it.
I'd sure wish to see stats on the matter: US/non-US and pre-9.11/post-9.11..
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