tentseller

The basic rule is that you need to be Quebec Anglo within a very narrow definition to be enrolled into English school in Quebec(QC).
Many immigrants who did not qualify as well as other QC residents relocated to other parts of Canada upon the implementation of the QC language act (101).

pinniped

Is the legal unilingual nature of Quebec a common topic of discussion there? Is there a dissenting view that believes it would be in the better economic interests of the province and its people to learn both languages?

In the U.S., since at least when I was in high school, we've constantly heard how our own lack of interest in learning a 2nd language makes us less competitive than we could be. But it was always in a far-off-opportunity sense: engagement in a distant but smaller economy than our own. I took Spanish in high school because the idea of traveling to Spain or Mexico sounded interesting - not because I felt like my career opportunities would be limited without it.

You want to go where?

The argument that the Quebecois would make is that if education was bilingual, French would quickly be supplanted by English in Quebec due to the overwhelming size of its neighbors (English Canada and the US) thereby destroying Quebecois culture.

My question about this map is akin to that raised by others. Are each of these countries using the same standards when they identify someone as English speaking? In a country where English is a significant local language, the standards are likely to be higher than in Vietnam, for example.

Also, because of the political ramifications associated with language in Quebec, I can imagine that some francophones whose English would be perfectly adequate to respond to the average tourist or understand a television show, might nonetheless define themselves solely French-speaking when reporting to the government. All that said, I have encountered truly unilingual francophone speakers in rural Quebec, where I was asked by them to translate things (for their benefit, not mine).

Finally, although there are francophones in many other provinces in Canada, I doubt that there are many unilingual francophones unless they live in very isolated communities. The presence of English is just too omnipresent for people not to absorb some English.

pinniped

Totally agree with you on varying standards. I imagine this map was collated from a wide variety of sources where the underlying question, purpose, standard, etc. was completely different from one place to another.

tentseller

The result was the wealth and brain drain when 101 was implemented. Many who will not qualify for English education left QC. Whatever was left of the multinationals left QC as well.
As a result, the quality of English in the younger post 101 generation is very poor, making them culture rich and employment poor.

You want to go where?

Yes, the cost of this and other pro-francophone choices was high. As you point out, it wasn't just the wealth and brain drain, but more importantly, the departure of large corporations from Montreal really hurt the economy of Quebec for generations to come.

sophiagymgall

I chose this specific excerpt to quote, but as a whole, I think you're making pretty broad generalizations that aren't necessarily backed up by facts, especially regarding youth bilingualism (and bilingualism in general) in Quebec. I would like to see some statistics/studies that quantify or qualify your observations, as opposed to general appreciations, so I can see what you're seeing.

According to Statistics Canada, 61% of 21-year-old Québécois who are native French speakers are able to carry a conversation in English (Statistics Canada's definition of bilingualism), and 85% consider their level of English to be fair to excellent. Those stats are from 2009 and they rely on a self-evaluation from the respondents, but still, I'd be inclined to think that they are fairly reliable. My personal impression is that a great majority of young Québécois who live on the St. Lawrence trade corridor (which is to say most of them) have at least some rudimentary knowledge of English. Moreover, the current unemployment rate in Quebec is only slightly above the Canadian average, and is comparable to that of Ontario. "Employment poor" may be a bit of an exaggeration.

Also, I don't want to get into a heated debate about culture and won't further comment on this, but I think it's ridiculously easy for one to criticize a nation that isn't theirs for wanting to protect its culture, especially when one's own culture isn't and has never really been threatened. A lot of regions in the Western world are lucky enough to be "culture-rich" without having to actually do anything about it. I don't think that those who aren't as lucky should be criticized for doing what they can in order to even come close to having that comfort/luxury. It's very hard to comprehend how much your culture, your language, your history and your values mean to you until you see them slowly get overruled by some that aren't yours and that you just can't identify with. Aaand that's all I'm going to say on that subject

I don't mean to start a massive debate, just trying to offer a counter perspective and some new facts and ideas. Sorry for any grammar or spelling mistakes I may have made, as I am one of those 21-year old native French speakers who learned their English in school Links to the stats here and here.

tentseller

As a Canadian businessman in Toronto who experienced:
76 Olympics, its financial fallout, ascension of PQ
77 Bill 101 first major exodus
80 referendum and the pre/post referendum exodus
90's business circle started noticing the general decline of the quality of English from QC graduates (post 101 students)
95 referendum and the ".6%" fallout.
etc etc.

Like most successful business people in Canada, I base my business and investment decision on what I see with my own eyes and eyes of those who I trust. I am also speaking from actual business experience in Canada of 40+yrs. I know that I am not alone in my assessment of the business/investment climate in QC due to their language policies.
StatsCan is only a summary of a bunch of questionnaires, replies base upon someone opinion of oneself.

I agree with you that all nations have the right to protect its culture. Canada is my NATION of 10 provinces and three territories.

Gamecock

Going to the original site, it shows 4.7% of Swazi's speak English. I spent quite a bit of time in that country, from the HoHoHo area down to Big Bend. Seemed to be a lot of folks who spoke a bit of English.

pinniped

sophiagymgall, your English is excellent.

I honestly don't believe anyone outside Canada is seriously critiqueing Quebec's decisions - I don't think this dominates dinner-table conversation in Vermont.

I was mainly wondering if this was a vibrant debate within the Francophone community, given how much national and transborder business takes place in English.

I guess I also bring two built-in biases: (1) I'd recommend any child to learn a second language, even if it only benefits them later in a personal sense (travel, culture, etc.) and (2) I think you're at an advantage if you can communicate with your biggest trade partners better than your competitors. For the USA, that may some day mean that we need to be learning Mandarin at a much greater rate than we do. For Quebec, it seems like that would be English.

sophiagymgall

This will be my last post on this, as it is off topic and I don't see either of us changing our views on the matter You feel like your Canadian nation includes Quebec, and I feel like my nation is Quebec in itself, and therefore I don't want to be included in your Canadian nation. As a biased Québécois, I'm inclined to ask, which point of view is more important, that of the people living in the region in question or that of outsiders? But even if I take my bias out of the equation, I can simply ask, on a theoretical level, what makes your vision of your nation so much more important that it should trump mine against my will? And the answer is - nothing, they're both equally valid. I wish I could explain it better, but abstract concepts are hard to flesh out in another language!

As for statistics, I agree that, depending on the study's format and methodology, they certainly can be based on personal experiences. However, if the study is done correctly and with a large enough pool/number of respondents, it should not matter. In any case, you're substituting those statistics with your own impressions and those of your friends, which is a similar (if not identical) type of analysis, but on a smaller, tiny scale, no matter how big your network is. I'm not saying those experiences you're talking about are not valid, but if you're going to brush off statistics, your personal assessments are not a very credible replacement. One's own experiences and opinions do not very accurate facts make, even when they're presented in a very convincing way

I completely agree, and I certainly didn't mean to imply that everyone in the world was discussing the situation in Quebec and passing judgement, I'm sorry if it came across that way! It is my experience, however, that the outsiders that I discuss the matter with often "critique" Quebec, in that they have strong negative opinions about the state of things here and are extremely entrenched in their viewpoints, without the necessary understanding of the culture, political situation and so on (not aimed at anyone here, just referring to past experiences). The "employment poor, culture rich" comment shocked me a bit by its inaccuracy and its misunderstanding of the situation in Quebec, which is why I insisted on addressing it (and am now done doing so!).

I absolutely agree with you on the importance of learning a second language, and I believe that the statistics I posted earlier illustrate that it is already a reality in Quebec, with it becoming even more common every year. All children start English in Grade 1, and take it until they're either 17 or 19. Most add a third language in secondary school, usually Spanish, but sometimes German or Latin depending on what their school offers. Not all teachers and programs are created equal, but it'd be hard, even for a very unmotivated student with awful teachers, to not have at least a basic knowledge of English after 10 years of study

Alright, as promised, this will be my last post in this thread, as I don't want to derail the thread completely! Hope I could shed some light on the matter and offer a different viewpoint, if nothing else