Calchas

But J cabins in particular across the Atlantic are getting more and more full. BA recently increased their typical J capacity by a further 16 seats at the expense of 40 Y seats. Is it all leisure travellers?

deniah

That seems like an easy constraint to work-around: do it like the banking industry does and give everyone VP titles.

badgersfly

That is certainly frustrating, and sorry to hear that!

One point that I think is left out of this conversation is about the health difference between flying J and Y. If you fly long international with any regular basis, it's not good for your body, particularly if you are cramped in Y. Just being able to lay down and shift from side to side in J goes a long way in preventing blood clots, cramps, etc. There is a reason that the back of the flight magazines all have instructions on how to "stretch" on the plane.
In addition, if you are flying J, it's assumed you are working at least part of the way. I'm not sure about anyone else, but with the seat kicked back in front of me and somebody next to me in Y, I find it near impossible to get much done on my laptop.

rufflesinc

Might your company be exxon mobile or chevron?

When I started working for my current company (auto supplier) last year, they didn't allow business for TPACs but now they do, after a HR survey of concerns.

Tchiowa

Those companies are more like Fortune 10 and revenues in the 100s of billions. I'm in the oil business and last I checked their policies have been domestic US is coach, international is business. Regardless of status. If you are high enough up to warrant First Class you take a corp jet.

rufflesinc

A company in the Fortune 10 is by definition in the Fortune 50 @:-)

Tchiowa

Yeah, but that's like saying an 80 year old man is over 10.

eigenvector

I work for a very large diversified energy conglomerate (>100k employees). Economy on all intra-Europe and North American flights, business on all transocean or international flights exceeding 6 hours. Same policy for all employees regardless of seniority.

rufflesinc

Just checked, E-M is on fortune 10, chevron is not.

Often1

Using titles for comparison purposes is meaningless. Some companies make everyone a VP or Managing Director or whatever and some give it to few.

The key is to be indispensible so that whoever it is that enforces the policy, doesn't enforce it against you for fear that you will jump ship. Client won't pay for F/J? Company pays it and bills the client for Y.

If you are good enough, these are the things you insist on as part of your deal.

Nickolash27

It hasn't been like that in my F10 energy company for at least 15 years. You must have checked a long time ago.

cytog64

@rgrobins - here is an update From my Nov 2014 reply #136

My employer still uses the ALL in Coach policy. Since 2014 the company has grown from 1500 employees to 2000, about only 10-15% are long haul travelers. Annual revenue is around 500M$/yr.

I spent a few months collecting research (corporate policies from other companies) as well as documenting stories and opinions from co-workers (I know of about 40+ long haul travelers). I presented my findings and suggestions to the VP of the department I work in around January 2015. He promised to take it to the executive team meeting and then I never heard about it again. The VP left the company last month. I would say the request died (though I kept my 12 pages of research and interviews). I was starting to get to the point where I had to balance the corporate politics of being a squeaky wheel and picking my battles.

I learned that based on the previous year's travel, the travel/expense department estimated allowing business class on flights over 8 hours would cost the company 1$M extra per year.

At this point all I can do is keep submitting Employee Job Satisfaction Surveys to human resources (I've gone Andy Dufresne on them) Also, I tend to bring up the issue with my manager on a quarterly review basis.

Of course I could find another company to work for; however, I really like my employer (a Fortune top 100 to work for). I am very happy with my pay and many of the destinations I get to travel to for work.

I don't think the corporate policy will change any time soon, so my next approach will be likely a doctor's order. I've also been stewing on an idea of using my miles to buy business class and trying to get the travel/expense department to reimburse the coach cost (that would be awesome to be able to convert excess miles to cash in this way).

I still have to travel to Brazil, Australia, Europe, Japan and South Africa about a half dozen more times this year and am dreading the back pain.

gooselee

You may not want to pursue this. Someone on my team did this for whatever reason, and her reimbursement was flat out denied, so she was just out of her own miles. Our corporate travel policy was also immediately updated to reflect that the use of points & miles for business travel would not be reimbursed.

The rationale was that our corporate policy also specified that any points/miles earned due to business travel are fully retained and controlled by the employee. Our payroll/finance department considers them to have no cash value, and thus doesn't need to tax them as a fringe benefit. If that same department suddenly started reimbursing people for spending those points/miles, that opens an enormous can of worms that nobody wants to deal with.

Badenoch

Perhaps too much time playing in the corporate world has made me a cynic but there is no chance an executive committee will sign off a $1 million dollar additional travel cost unless there is a quantifiable and concrete return. They won't spend an extra million for something ephemeral like "employee satisfaction."

A doctor's note specifying you can only fly business may result in you being grounded. Can't fly? Here's your desk.

I'm wondering if there an OSHA angle on this? Maybe something related to office workers and back pain or Repetitive Strain Injuries?

Often1

Depends on scale. Net revenue of $500K and a $1 Million expense item takes you from black to red. Fortune 10 and $1 Million is a rounding error, perhaps to be made up by switching from 2-ply to single-ply toilet paper.

ROI sometimes cannot be identified directly. If you are losing top people and in their exit interviews, some significant number of them identify travel conditions as a serious problem, e.g., regular quick turn TPAC in Y, you have a problem. If there is competition out there and your competition can hire away for the cost differential of a J ticket, you have to consider the value of talent retention.

And don't forget, presuming US taxes, at least 30% if not more of the price differential is a business deduction and is being picked up by the taxpayer. So, that daunting differential between J & Y keeps shrinking in terms of how it hits the bottom line.