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When was flying civilized? And where it IS?

When was flying civilized? And where it IS?

Old Mar 1, 2013, 7:54 am
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When was flying civilized? And where it IS?

Gizmodo made another nostalgia article:
http://gizmodo.com/5987350/scenes-fr...till-civilized

On airliners.net, this caused predictable, and justified, complaints about safety, cost and actual comfort of the ancient times flying.

However, note one balanced post pointing at the right questions to ask:
Originally Posted by spacecadet
Not entirely true, or at least not entirely true a bit later in this "golden age". While fares were generally higher when adjusted for inflation, the difference between a first class ticket and a coach ticket was not the massive gulf that often exists now. Flying first class was not out of bounds for average people. My family was certainly not rich and yet throughout the 1970's, we flew first class about every other flight (for a family of four). I recall fares something like $700 per person for coach for a transcon flight, or around $1,000 for first class.

At the same time, coach was not the 31" seat pitch, fee-laden, food-less nightmare it is now. On flights longer than about 2 hours, you got a hot meal, as many drinks and snacks as you wanted, and seat pitch was more like 35" (I still remember United's DC-8's at that time with 38" - whenever we flew coach, we always tried to book United and hoped we'd get a DC-8). And back then, you'd actually be considered unlucky if you ended up seated next to someone you hadn't booked your trip with - middle seats were almost always empty. So to answer another argument in this thread, you can say that even flying coach was more expensive then, but you also got more for your money.

Don't forget that there also weren't extra charges like bag fees, booking fees, telephone service fees or even fuel surcharges. The price of the ticket was how much your trip cost, period. If you were to try to book a trip today exactly equivalent in terms of services and comfort as you would have had in the 1970's or before, I'm not convinced it wouldn't cost you pretty much the same amount in the end. (I'm also not convinced you could actually even do it on a domestic flight, because of so many services that have been cut. No way to get a hot meal on board most domestic flights now, for example.) You'd probably actually have to book business class.

I think that certainly on international routes, especially for foreign airlines, it's not impossible to have an experience as good or better than what you'd have gotten up to the 1970's... if you pay for it. And you'll probably pay *more* now than you would have then, because first and even business class have gotten so ridiculous on some airlines. But there's not much that's comparable to the service level of international coach in those days anymore, even if you wanted to pay for it. Maybe something like JAL's Premium Economy, but that kind of thing isn't very common among modern airlines and it's also quite expensive (it's a true fourth class between economy and business, not just a few extra inches of legroom like Delta's Economy Comfort or other E+ offerings). The modern international economy level of service didn't really exist in the old days. If prices are lower now, it's because the airlines have essentially invented a new, lower class of service than what used to be officially called coach.
This is the impression I have got from the descriptions of the difference between ancient and present flying....

Which airlines do now offer premium economy services which are no worse than 1970s coach or first class, and also no more expensive?
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Old Mar 1, 2013, 9:01 am
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While fares were generally higher when adjusted for inflation, the difference between a first class ticket and a coach ticket was not the massive gulf that often exists now. Flying first class was not out of bounds for average people. My family was certainly not rich and yet throughout the 1970's, we flew first class about every other flight (for a family of four). I recall fares something like $700 per person for coach for a transcon flight, or around $1,000 for first class.
What is this guy smoking?

A $700 ticket in 1975 is equivalent to $2,900 today. Of course there's not going to be a massive gulf between F/Y when the starting coach ticket is that expensive.

And affordable? Median household income was something around $12,000. How many $4,000 first-class transcons is the average family of four taking?
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Old Mar 1, 2013, 9:28 am
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For all the kvetching about deterioration of service since the 70s, you sure don't hear much about how accessible air travel has become.

In the 60s and 70s, trips overseas or to Caribbean destinations were regarded as "once in a lifetime" occasions for middle class families. The working class couldn't even really think about it.

These days, partly due to lower prices relative to income (and maybe also to low interest rates/easy credit), air travel is well within the grasp of most people who have jobs (and aren't supporting 6 people on one income or some such). Even working class people who would have had to be content with road or bus trips 40 years ago can now contemplate a package holiday to the Caribbean or Vegas.

So if the seats are a bit tight and the chicken dinner has disappeared, well, at least there is an upside to it for a large segment of the population.
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Old Mar 1, 2013, 9:57 am
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We still have the itinerary receipt from a flight from 1977: MCI-FCO R/T. $550 on TWA, via JFK.

That's $2,090 in today's dollars. I'm sure the chicken dinner was spectacular. I mean, people used to rave about airfood being Michelin star-rated cuisine, didn't they?

At the time, I'm sure we thought that was a once-in-a-lifetime trip. Thankfully, it wasn't, and I've flown to Europe numerous times for less than $500 R/T in 2013 dollars. (e.g., $340-370 all in pretty much every winter in the late 90's / early 00's.)

Oh, and that $2,090 Y fare earned $0 worth of miles. The $500 R/T fare earns $150-300 worth of RDM's depending on how you value your miles and your specific route and status. A couple of my $350 R/T's also came with winter route bonuses. AA Plat...one cheap R/T might easily post 25,000 miles.

Sort of makes the complaint "but I have to spend $10 on an airport sandwich" seem rather trivial, huh?

If I was going to do a nostalgia piece, I'd compare today's landscape against the late 90's or so:

- Loose mileage programs, lots of route bonuses and other bonuses
- Loose upgrade rules, no copays, no minimum fares (at least on AA)
- Crazy-cheap fares published every Tuesday. "Netsaver" emails were really worth reading. There was a group of us working together in Chicago...literally when either the AA or UA email dropped, people in the office would start buzzing about it. "Where are we going this time? Europe, west coast, somewhere warm, where?"
- Lots of overbooking on business routes making it easy to maintain a stash of VDB vouchers
- CTO's made it easy to use VDB vouchers, and the use of vouchers actually kicked out a couple of the international taxes making the ticket even cheaper
- Platinum Service Centers for AA, dedicated 1K desk for UA. Actual airport counters inside security at the hubs

That's when it was good. Who wants the 70's, with its expensive tickets and no real loopholes to work the system? I mean, I like chicken and all but not that much!!
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Old Mar 1, 2013, 10:49 am
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Well said pinniped.
And simply back to 90', the panorama of airfares wasn't that exciting either.
Domestic, intra Euro, TATL, name it.
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Old Mar 1, 2013, 11:11 am
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When was flying civilized? And where it IS?

You used to be able to visit the cockpit.
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Old Mar 1, 2013, 11:43 am
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Originally Posted by 8rulos
You used to be able to visit the cockpit.
And you'd get those fun wings pins when you did! I remember hoarding them as an 80s/90s kid
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Old Mar 1, 2013, 12:15 pm
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E0 was amazing

BA's LCY is even smaller but has a stop when going to US
wow, pax have access to quintessentially now, just like E0

but the best are scheduled charter services (sell tickets) that operate out of general aviation terminals

Originally Posted by nerd
What is this guy smoking?

A $700 ticket in 1975 is equivalent to $2,900 today

Median household income was something around $12,000
indeed

"certainly not rich"
vs
spending $12K or $16K on airfare per trip
$16K seems like AA flagship J (but not F)
= rich people problems as they say
as a joke, not saying they were rich
but clearly "certainly not rich" is just plain silly

Last edited by Kagehitokiri; Mar 2, 2013 at 8:11 am
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Old Mar 1, 2013, 1:16 pm
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Here is what every article pertaining to the "crappy airline experience" of today should say.

The Flying Public's Constant Addiction and Demand for $200 Flights has Completely Screwed the Airline Industry

Do people realize what it costs to operate an airliner? I doubt it. Do they care? I doubt it. Id like to see the airlines issue a breakdown of costs along with each ticket purchase.

"Thank you for purchasing your ticket on XYZ Airlines, below you will see a breakdown cost analysis for your flight with us. We will apply your $200 to purchase 50 gallons of jet fuel on our airplane that holds 30,000 gallons"
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Old Mar 1, 2013, 1:35 pm
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Originally Posted by NFeldberg
Here is what every article pertaining to the "crappy airline experience" of today should say.

The Flying Public's Constant Addiction and Demand for $200 Flights has Completely Screwed the Airline Industry


That doesn't make any sense. The demand side alone can't force airlines to offer cheap tickets. We didn't screw them.

Do people realize what it costs to operate an airliner?
No? Trick question? Why do I care, unless I'm an institutional investor in airlines? If I'm just a retail investor, I don't care because I'd always stay the hell away from these stocks! @:-)

I don't care about their operational costs: I only assess whether the transportation service provided is valuable to me. On some level, I do hope they can remain in business because I want the service to exist, but I also realize that they control their own pricing models - not me. They can offer me a $200 ticket and I might buy it. If they raise that price 50% to $300, I'll decide whether the trip is still worth it.

This discussion seems silly in 2013, because at this point the airlines have actually done a good job of taking back pricing power by controlling supply. The cheap leisure fares are scarce, and they are filling the planes with business travelers to fairly high loads and yields.

This time at least, they seem to have changed their ways. IMHO, for the domestic U.S. market it's in large part because Southwest has decided to become a premium product, pricing well above the legacies instead of leading fare wars. If somebody wants to start a fare war, it's Virgin or Frontier, and those don't turn into nationwide fare wars. Southwest occasionally lobs in a systemwide sale but they are no longer insane fares - just "decent" fares with lots of blackouts and exclusions.

"Thank you for purchasing your ticket on XYZ Airlines, below you will see a breakdown cost analysis for your flight with us. We will apply your $200 to purchase 50 gallons of jet fuel on our airplane that holds 30,000 gallons"
Meh. Technobabble for aviation nerds. For everyone else, it's just a bus ticket. Get me from point A to point B.
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Old Mar 1, 2013, 2:43 pm
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Originally Posted by pinniped


That doesn't make any sense. The demand side alone can't force airlines to offer cheap tickets. We didn't screw them.



No? Trick question? Why do I care, unless I'm an institutional investor in airlines? If I'm just a retail investor, I don't care because I'd always stay the hell away from these stocks! @:-)

I don't care about their operational costs: I only assess whether the transportation service provided is valuable to me. On some level, I do hope they can remain in business because I want the service to exist, but I also realize that they control their own pricing models - not me. They can offer me a $200 ticket and I might buy it. If they raise that price 50% to $300, I'll decide whether the trip is still worth it.

This discussion seems silly in 2013, because at this point the airlines have actually done a good job of taking back pricing power by controlling supply. The cheap leisure fares are scarce, and they are filling the planes with business travelers to fairly high loads and yields.

This time at least, they seem to have changed their ways. IMHO, for the domestic U.S. market it's in large part because Southwest has decided to become a premium product, pricing well above the legacies instead of leading fare wars. If somebody wants to start a fare war, it's Virgin or Frontier, and those don't turn into nationwide fare wars. Southwest occasionally lobs in a systemwide sale but they are no longer insane fares - just "decent" fares with lots of blackouts and exclusions.



Meh. Technobabble for aviation nerds. For everyone else, it's just a bus ticket. Get me from point A to point B.

When an airline like Southwest becomes the Ben Bernanke of the U.S airline industry, Id say we most certainly have a problem with cheap fare demand.
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Old Mar 1, 2013, 2:49 pm
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Well, the cheap fare demand is probably somewhat frustrated at this point, because the cheap fares on many routes are long gone.
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Old Mar 1, 2013, 3:00 pm
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Originally Posted by pinniped


That doesn't make any sense. The demand side alone can't force airlines to offer cheap tickets. We didn't screw them.



-- SNIP --
Originally Posted by NFeldberg
When an airline like Southwest becomes the Ben Bernanke of the U.S airline industry, Id say we most certainly have a problem with cheap fare demand.
I have to agree with pinniped on this one. We, the leisure traveling public, did not force airlines to price below profitability. We did not have a gun to their head making them offer lower prices. The Airlines simply could have and currently [apparently] do price so that they can be profitable.

I don't see why it is a "problem" when consumers want to pay as little as possible for a product or service but it is "just good business sense" or "looking out for stakeholder's interest" when a business wants to pay as little as possible for a product or service [i.e. labor].
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Old Mar 1, 2013, 5:07 pm
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For power users, we've never had it better. Some people in their 20's on this site have probably logged more flight miles in premium cabins than their parents did their *entire* lives. And with credit card bonuses or promotions to buy points outright, probably at a very low cost too.

Arguably, the premium offerings now are more luxurious than in the gogo 60s and 70s.
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Old Mar 2, 2013, 12:46 am
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Originally Posted by pinniped
We still have the itinerary receipt from a flight from 1977: MCI-FCO R/T. $550 on TWA, via JFK.

That's $2,090 in today's dollars. I'm sure the chicken dinner was spectacular. I mean, people used to rave about airfood being Michelin star-rated cuisine, didn't they?

At the time, I'm sure we thought that was a once-in-a-lifetime trip. Thankfully, it wasn't, and I've flown to Europe numerous times for less than $500 R/T in 2013 dollars. (e.g., $340-370 all in pretty much every winter in the late 90's / early 00's.)
This gives the scale of how much coach has cheapened!

How much would a return trip MCI-JFK-FCO cost now in business class?
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