If delivery charge and gratuity are included, why on earth should anyone tip?

I once stayed in a hotel in Pleasanton and there is a tip envelop for housekeeping :td:, and a tip plate for the omlette cook during breakfast:td:.

Perhaps the following comment should be in the LAS or "gambling forum":
If one wins a jackpot (anything over $1200) playing slot machines, a slot attendant and a security person (eventually:)) come to give you your cash; many gamblers will tip each of them, I personally do not. I would not hesitate tipping the slot attendant if he/she steered me to the machine I won on.
[Once I won an even $2000, I was given 19 $100, 4 $20's and 2 $10 not just 20 $100...]

I prefer the tipping system in restaurants due to the simple fact of incentivizing better service. Many countries add a mandatory service charge (i.e. tip), however the service is inferior. Why? The server has no incentive to serve you better; whether he/she does a good job or not you're still paying the "service charge.". Extremely annoying!!

With the US tipping system in restaurants, if the servers do ok, you tip them 15%, you tip them more if they take the extra mile. In some countries, a lot of people tip even though service is included, provided that they got good service.

It's cultural difference - so if the other system bothers you so much, don't use it.

Mandatory service charges were tried in a couple of restaurants I patronized frequently in the 90s. Everyone hated it except the mediocre servers. The service degraded, the good servers took a huge hit in tips, and the owners saw a steady decline in revenues.

Great servers in great restaurants make very good money. Many are well into six figures.

i think the U.S "system" is ideal.

Which brings me back to my previous question. Why do you not use the same logic with your dentist ? Or your accountant ?

I don't. Having travelled reasonably widely, I loathe tipping systems, and find them both stressful and utterly unintuitive (particularly the "tip by default" aspect prevalent in restaurants and bars). My experience of bad, mediocre and good service is that it is entirely independent of whether the server is getting paid a decent wage by their employer.

The two biggest complaints I have with the US style system [in restaurants[ are:
* You "have" to use your designated server. Want something and they're busy ? Short of practically tackling someone else as they scoot by, you'll be ignored by the rest of the waitstaff (and I assume from the server's perspective, "stealing" someone else's customers is considered pretty poor form).
* The result of waitstaff desperate to appear "good" and thus maximise their tips is constant fawning, asking if everything is ok, can they get anything else, etc. Americans seem to lap this sort of obsequiousness up and consider it to be the ultimate measure of "good service", but I just find it annoying, if not embarrassing.

Then why tip some people and not others, despite them ostensibly delivering "service" ? Why tip bartenders but not a fast food checkout staff ? Why tip a masseuse but not a dentist ?

As I said. The only common theme I've been able to identify behind tipping is whether or not the person is getting screwed by their employer and not being paid enough to survive without tips.

+1 can't agree more. Where do you draw the line? What about all those people who are not in those tipping industry but still treat you nice?

Local custom.

May have tempted fate there planemechanic.....he has just lost his job so any ideas?

Oh and if anyone knows of any restaurants in Toronto hiring.......;)

Any suggestion for someone with no skill qualifications?

Yes, drsmithy, perhaps a campaign for fairer wages for our servers etc and we wouldn't have to tip at all!

I can tell you from my days in the practice that clients "tip" their attorneys, just in a different way -- there's the dinners at the incredible restaurants when you win a case or close a deal, the thank you trips to world capitals, etc.

Heck, even vendors tip -- three times a year, you can count on huge baskets of baked goods on your desk from various vendors, hoping to either keep your business or woo you over to them. On a cold morning, that was almost as good as a first class trip to Paris. :D

Factory work, cleaning...... there are jobs. If your son is still young, perhaps get he should get some education to make him 'skilled'.

Yes, trade school or junior college.

The company Mr. Nacho works for has a very strict policy about NOT accepting any gift from vendors.

It sounds like bribery more than anything else. In a way, tipping is also a kind of bribery. At least by definition from Wiki:

Go to school and obtain at least a two year degree. Preferably in an area that would lead to work in an area that he is interested in. That's what I did (and then went on to more advanced schooling) when I was young and the company I worked for went out of business, and now I make six figures. We all start somewhere.

One thing for me is that I simply find the act of tipping in settings where you directly hand the tip to the service personnel a very awkward thing to do, especially when there is an expectation of a certain amount that a foreigner wouldn't necessarily be expected to know. You are then faced with standing face to face with someone that you may or may not have tipped adequately. Actually quite stressful. There are also situations where it would not occur to foreigners to tip, and they simply don't consider it.

Also, save the explanations over tipping about how poorly US wait staff are paid, and how it's somehow my (the customer's) problem. I'm more than happy to (and do) do it because it's customary, and because I generally receive excellent and friendly service at most places in the US - I'm not doing it because I am somehow responsible for the fact that the employer doesn't pay their staff properly.

The way I was taught is to fold the note(s) so that it fits into the palm of your hand and then palm it as you shake hands with the person and say thank you. The person, if they are of class or have been trained well, will pocket the note(s) without looking at them and return the thank you. This provides a degree of discretion and removes the stress of over/under tipping when you hand the tip to the person.

Yes - that doesn't sound socially awkward at all...

Why should it? The person does his job, you shake hands, they go. What's so awkward about that?

http://www.ehow.com/how_112004_tip-properly-north.html
Read point 3.

ehow - the fountain of all knowledge... :rolleyes:

Uh huh. And why do think it's "customary" ?

Not at all the same thing. Though I hope the smiley means you're aware of that.

ehow - a web site used to cite an example.

[Unduly personalized remark deleted by Moderator.]

Um... Because the local population has been doing it that way (for whatever reason) for a period of time long enough for it to become an expectation of the general public?

Nor does it sound vulgar...

Huh? You totally lost me BadgerBoi.

Not sure if you're pro or con this method of tipping, whether you're being genuine or whether you're implying that the method, the other poster or I am vulgar. :confused:

Con. Sorry, but I find that just one step away from tucking a note in someone's shirt pocket. I'm not saying you are vulgar, just that method of handing money to someone is.

[Unduly personalized - deleted by Moderator]. Can't be arsed getting into useless, long-winded discussion about this, but suffice to say some may be fine with your method, but accept that there are also going to many others that just think it's weird, socially awkward and potentially very embarrassing.

Edit - I see that you're based in Australia. Could account for something - different places, different customs etc. I can assure you that while what you describe undoubtedly happens here and there, it is not the norm in the US, for example.

Fair enough, and both you and BB are entitled to your opinion, as am I and everyone else on this site, but it's not my method. It's just one I was taught, in the US by the way. Although I'm based in Oz at the moment, I'm a dual citizen.

Others may find it awkward and even vulgar but I've been told that it's one that is taught in many "finishing school" type places (can't confirm or deny this, though) and is designed to be quite the opposite. In many situations overtly handing someone cash is concidered both awkward and improper. Discretion is the key in those situations.

No offence to BB, but this is nothing at all like putting money in someones shirt pocket, which is both extrememly overt and demeaning. This method is subtle and discreet. Not intended for, say, a porter but more for the Concierge, Maitre D and so on.

I'd be interested in hearing from others whether they have used this method or not, and their thoughts on it.

Edit: Here's a link to an interesting thread, both pro and con, palming gratuities:

http://ask.metafilter.com/88100/Here-ya-go-buddy

I abhor the US tipping method, but I do tip and I tip very well depending on where I go.

Hotels: I will try the sandwich game, usually I'll get either an upgrade worth far more than the $20 I palm the check-in clerk or I'll get my money back(they can't "take" tips). I've never spent $20 without getting benefits.

.... the bell men I can carry my own goddamn bags, even if I am on vacation what's in my bags(expensive scuba gear and camera stuff) means I don't want a stranger touching them or running the risk of them dropping it.

Restaurants: If there is a professional Maitre D' or if the host stand takes care of me I'll palm the host/Maitre D 'a $10 bill. The host stand can make a meal 10x better if they're properly run and most of the time your tip to the server never makes it's way to the host stand. I've tipped host stands up to $100 after the fact as appreciation for a large event or when my friends want to spontaneously have 20-30 people dinners without any notice for the restaurant)
Servers will get
0%(terrible service, the server royally ....ed up and was made aware of it DURING the meal, the managers were involved, etc)
10%(bad service, inattentive server, meal was alright)
15%(normal service, decent meal)
20%+(above and beyond what I expect of a server at the appropriate restaurant)
Coat Check: If my coat is nice and is taken care of(always away from smokers coats) then I'll tip $5-10. I did coat check for a few years(and might do it in the winter) and we worked our asses off to memorize thousands of people and who's coats belong to whom(especially when diners get drunk and "lose" their ticket, how the f do you lose a ticket in the span of two hours, stick it in your wallet or purse!!!!). Memorizing hundreds of identical Mink coats, leather jackets that all look the same, and stacking them up before putting them carefully on hooks takes more skill than most people will ever understand. Mink coats get damn heavy and usually I'll have to stack up to 10 coats on my left arm and memorize who they belong to, which number they have, and what they and the coat look like. When there are coats that easily are more expensive than cars I hope they appreciate the fact that I can tell who has an expensive coat and take appropriate care of it. One guy paid me $50 in advance to take care of his HAT one time, that hat never left my eyesight.

I may be biased because I was trained as a Professional Coat Checker and Maitre D' years ago and worked in fine dining restaurants and corporate restaurants as a Manager and Maitre D'. I also worked in HR for a major restaurant chain and while I loved it I abhor the tipping culture in general and would like to see it shift to the European style.

I don't feel penalizing the servers(unless they deserve it) to instigate change is an effective method and frankly I feel even if they were paid "well" by the owners they'd probably be getting .... pay.

How many of you guys espousing the owners paying the wage instead of tipping actually get decent pay at the company you work for?

Maybe it's my experience working FOH at the host stand and for implementing capacity maximization that allows me to truly understand how valuable a good host stand/team is...

Good and bad servers come and go left and right but a well put together host stand is the real bread and butter of a restaurant.

At one restaurant, my predecessor would seat about 500 people on a Saturday night, decent numbers, nothing to scoff at. I turned it around and would seat on average 1,000-1,500 people PER Saturday night, effectively tripling the income of the Restaurant, making regulars happy, and making my servers a LOT more money.
On major holidays I would get palmed $10-$15 by couples that got a booth AFTER the meal and I worked for every cent I made.

My point is most people take the host stand for granted and most restaurants fail to realize when they have a good host stand.

I enjoy the service business and making people happy; and it can be extremely rewarding, but then you get people that are impossible to please regardless of how perfect you make their dining experience.

I'll also probably make people extremely confused, but I tip for takeout. Takeout can require extreme precision and timing to ensure that I get you your food when I said it would be ready, making sure the meal will stay perfect while you transport it, and if you're paying $100 for takeout you can probably spare $1-10 as gratuity and for the time it takes to put together a $100 takeout order.

On the flip-side I hope the US someday gets away from the tipping culture but I won't hold my breath on it. It would require restaurants to completely change how they operate, would require reformulating taxes and regulations, and would essentially end up with the exact same pricing when you factor in tips.

At the end of the day Career service Professionals are a notch above the rest and realize they'll get an occasional non-tipper and they factor that along with days where there just isn't enough tables into their income calculations.

Career waiters and waitresses would quickly disappear if there wasn't enough money and you'd end up with the worst servers/waitresses at all the restaurants.

Sadly the US is transitioning into more of a service industry economy which can have a disastrous outcome if not properly set up.

If you have a regular restaurant you go to and there is a host stand that takes care of you, consider taking care of them, they WILL appreciate it and most of them are making only $9-10 an hour to get yelled at by servers,managers, kitchen people, and customers.

As a Maitre D' I would split any palmed money with my hostesses(because lets be real most of the host stand people are female, I think in the last 10 years I ran into 1-2 males other than myself) and it made their week when we had some pretty good gratitude from our regulars.

Frankly I don't get the apathetic attitude of "Get another job" or treating service industry people as anything other than human beings.

It seems like anti-tipping people have some kind of chip on their shoulder....

Just my long-winded thoughts on tipping.... So many good memories/horrible horrible memories.

I'm based in Australia too (born and bred here), so I don't think that's it.

Given you've just written a post largely agreeing with us "anti-tipping" people, it's hard to see how you get to that conclusion.

But you did provide a textbook example of why I hate tipping cultures:
Tipping for bad, heck, even for "normal" service completely defeats the argument in favour of a tipping culture. Why would you tip someone for doing a bad job if the point of tipping is to encourage good service ? :confused:


Coming from a non-tipping culture, this is how I calculate those numbers:

Complaints to the manager (terrible service, the server royally ....ed up and was made aware of it DURING the meal, the managers were involved, etc)
Complaints to the staff (bad service, inattentive server, meal was alright)
0% (normal service, decent meal) Or in other words doing the job they're being paid to do.
10-20%+ (above and beyond what I expect of a server at the appropriate restaurant)

To pre-empt Americans jumping down my throat, I tip appropriately when I'm visiting the US, when I've been made aware that it's actually appropriate. Restaurants, of course, are easy - it's all the other ones like valets, bellhops, masseuses, hairdressers, etc where it gets unintuitive and stressful.

Unfortunately I think visitors get more stressed out than they need to about this.

Restaurants are the one place that people should try to get tipping "right". Everyone tips, and therefore tipping is expected.

Everyone else you mentioned on your list gets tipped by some of their patrons. For some of those jobs, the percentage of patrons who tip is higher than others, and this varies the level of expectation that the would-be receiver should reasonably have of being tipped, but their inward attitude is most likely one where a tip is hoped for rather than expected, regardless of their outward demeanor.

Ordinary Americans are not uniform in their tipping habits of valets, bellhops and taxi drivers etc. and so a visitor shouldn't stick out like a sore thumb if they choose not to tip. Restaurants aside, if service is good then go ahead and tip. If you feel it's been average or poor then you shouldn't start obsessing about whether you should tip or not at the end of the service. I wonder how many people simply can't enjoy their service experiences because of the worry about the gratuity at the end.

In the US. Not in the UK nor in much of the rest of Europe.

Neil

I certainly find this myself, particularly if the card machine is not set up for card tipping and I have no change.

I would enjoy it much more if the menu items were simply 20% more expensive, and perhaps the restaurant offered some sort of guarantee in the event of particularly poor service, but then there was no tipping.

Neil

Obviously.

The post I was responding to was about the US.

I would say a large majority of anti-tipping people have never worked in the service industry. I base my opinion on observations of people that are strictly anti-tipping versus those that wish the system were different but understand WHY the system exists.

I hope in the "non-tipping" culture you're also factoring in higher restaurant prices. The fact is that a non-tipping culture has higher restaurant prices with the expectations that no tipping is necessary while the US and other parts of the world have lower restaurant prices and customers are asked to make up the difference in employee pay.

If at the end of the day the prices are relatively the same and the service is roughly the same why do people get so hostile towards tipping cultures? The fact is that in Europe if your service sucks you're still paying towards the employee's pay(excluding comps because those can also apply to the US) whereas in the US you can directly penalize the server for crappy service.

At the end of the day the only way I'd truly support a non-tipping system would be if they could eliminate bad servers... unfortunately that would create inflated prices because the good servers would be able to right their own compensation requests.

In the UK, restaurant menus show the actual cost of the meal including all taxes, and where there is an included service charge, quite a regular thing for parties of 6 or more, the percentage (usually 12.5%) is clearly indicated. Even where there is an inclusive service charge, this can be questioned by the customer, and can be reduced for bad service/ disappointing meal, or increased at the customer's discretion.

What is irrtating is when an establishment has added their inclusive service charge - they then leave the option to add a tip open or blank in the hope that the customer will add more.

Quite a few establishments close the slip so a tip CAN'T be added if you want to pay by card, so presumably the waiters can take a cash tip left on the table.

Yes the prices are higher than they are in a comparable establishment in the US, but those low prices don't include the state taxes or the almost mandatory tip.

What I found disappointing in one hotel we stayed in last summer was that our waiter actually looked disappointed with the $100(20%) tip he received at the end of our meal. If all his tables were as generous, he would have earned well over $1000 in tips at the end of the evening, on top of his minimum wage. Multiply that by 5 days a week and he would be on $5000 minimum a week or based on a 48 working week year - nearly $250,000 a year! Believe me - that is a pretty good wage to be on for anyone - never mind a waiter.

+1

Unfortunately in the US that is not always the case. In several states, Florida for example, some professions are almost or a 100% tip based with no salary.

Very unfair, but it is the way it is. Think about that.