Yup, similar in terms of hours, lots of people work far less (they also have the EU Working Time Directive to comply with these days too!)

I understand, most of the veteran servers at my restaurant actually overtip the bussers just so that their tables would be cleaned first. Usually the rookies, would be the ones to stiff/shortchange the busser, not knowing that they were actually costing themselves money in the long run.

As for the tipping system, everyone has their opinions and I nor anyone else will never be able to change the opinions of emma, nevertipneverwill, or pilot mechanic. All I can do is describe the system that servers work under and hopefully point out the major fallacies of the non-tippers ideology ie; tipping isn't needed, if I don't tip then it will improve service and/or get servers hourly wages to rise etc.

All I can tell you is that for the 5 years that I worked my way through school 100% of the money I earned for living expenses and other essential items was 100% based on the generosity of the patrons that I waited on.

Waiting was the best option for me because it allowed me to have a flexible schedule to handle my class load, and allowed me to work extra or give away shifts when necessary. Not to mention how difficult is to find a job that pays much above minimum wage until you get some experience in your field of study.

I agree; it's her or his money.

The servers' choice to do so?

We should tip because the bathroom is clean? It must be clean by law. The chef should get a tip too? Chefs are paid minimum wage?

Often, we see better service in smaller restaurants. I wonder if it has to do with the server getting to keep her tip in its entirety instead of being forced to share her tip with servers who are lazy.

One thing I don't think you clarified: Do the servers pool their tips together or is the cut for the bus boy and other support staff taken from each server's tip separately so that the lazy servers aren't making the same tips as those servers who are better and thus earn more?

I can agree with that only if the lazy aren't sharing in the spoils of those who work extra hard to get the larger tips.

I tip extra when I get great service from the server. I don't tip more because the bathroom is stocked with toilet paper. It's a personal decision to tip 20% or more based on the personality, talent, and efficiency of the server. Great ones get higher tips. So do the lazier servers share in the same tips of the better servers whose tips are more?

This has been very informative. The next time we get a top-knotch server who goes above and beyond, we will want to tip him directly. We'll give him a CASH tip and tell him that it's for him and him alone because we appreciate his service. So that he doesn't get in trouble, we'll tell the manager what we're doing so she can know what a great employee she has and so she knows that we want the server to keep the tip for a service well done. It would be pretty stupid for a manager to tell customers that they can't do that assuming they want return business. It's very hard to be a server; they have to deal with all kinds of personalities at the tables. They are on the front line and they deserve the money at least from this customer's point of view.

I will of course ask first if tips are pooled. It would be worse if the tips are divided equally among all servers IMO.

You just reminded me of my least favourite restaurant practice. Sometimes I go for late lunches, and order my meal, am served, but have not yet ordered pudding or coffee when the waiter plonks down the bill and tells me if is because their shift is finishing. I am afraid that is not MY problem, and I will pay the bill at the end of the meal as normal, when I have finished my food and drink. If it is an issue, they should speak to the server taking over the table, and make an agreement to split the tip between themselves (50-50 or whatever way they deem fair). How blooming rude is it to say 'hey, yeh, I'm done I want my money, stuff the fact you are still in the middle of your meal'. Or is that just me, and everyone else thinks that is normal / correct?

Hate that too!

That would be an immediate reason to plummet the tip. I don't think I've experienced being told something like that. We've been introduced to another server who will be serving our table which I assumed was because of a shift change. We've certainly been introduced to the new bartender at a shift change!

@ Analise

I have never heard of a actual restaurant that pools their tips between other servers. So that is a non-issue.

As far as tipping out I am afraid that you can't control that. As much as you might like to. Servers tip-out because others provide service that the server doesn't have time to (cleaning tables/making bar drinks). I wouldn't tip more or less based on restroom cleanliness that is more just good business/the law. The only restaurants I know that servers tip out hostess are ones where the hostess provides a service to the waitstaff other than seating (rolling silverware or taking to-go orders)

@Emma

Interesting point, and I think it does depend a bit on where you are at in the meal. Sometimes, a manager is the one telling the server to get off the clock and we can't clock out if we have open checks. Usually I just pass over the tab to the waiter coming in or wait until the guest is finished... unless of course they have been camping out for a while then I may say something.

Good to know. Thanks for clearing that up.

I understand that from your explanation above and from QueenOfCoach. Well, if it's a cash tip, I hope a top-knotch server keeps the extra part for herself. Can't track cash so that's advantageous for a great server.

As I said, there are various levels of experience. At a really great restaurant, you get superior food, superior service and really really tidy restrooms. You should tip accordingly. (I still remember the really nice restrooms at Pebble Beach.)

At a "regular" restaurant, you get good service, good food and decent restrooms. Tip the usual 15%.

Again, what happens to the money after it passes from your hands to that of the servers is not your business. It is the server's money to do with what they want. If part of that money goes to the bussers or the cooks, that's none of your business.

Great, you can hope. You have no actual control over where the money ends up. If a server gets a reputation for being chintzy with the tip-outs, guess whose food will be lukewarm and slow, guess whose tables won't get bussed and guess whose drinks will be watery.

A truly top-notch server would probably be extra generous with the tip-outs, just so they can continue to provide top-notch service to the customers. Hot food, timely, efficient service, fast table bussing and great drinks.

You don't necessarily get superior service at an expensive restaurant. You get more expensive food. One tips for the service one receives.

You don't necessarily get "regular" service at what you deem as a regular restaurant. I have found some of the best service to be gotten at small family restaurants, coffee shops, and inexpensive holes in the wall (or is it holes in the walls?). Regardless of the menu prices, we tip ~15% for average service and more as it gets better.

If we go out for breakfast at a coffee shop, we overtip because 15-20% is peanuts.

As for bathrooms, I don't analyze them as you do. As long as they are clean and have toilet paper, soap, and paper towels or those super-blast dryers, that works. That is also to be expected; if not, we won't return there again. NYC is getting serious about making sure restaurants are clean (the entire restaurant) as they are now being graded A, B, or C which are posted on the windows. C is failure. Restaurants with C's must get a better grade or suffer the consequences from the City of New York.

Ohhh, so they can choose to keep their entire tip since, as you said, it's the servers' money. The decision to share part of the tip is the for the servers alone to make, is that correct? I believe I've asked that question already.

I'll be asking the waiters and bartenders we see this weekend. I'll then ask how patrons can tip them and them alone. It's not my job to pay for behind-the-scenes employees. That belongs to the restaurant management. Even if we use the credit card for the check, we will tip cash.

with regards to tipping, i'd say I am more of a chintzy tipper than a good/generous tipper

typically in that 13-15% range for avg to above avg service

real good service might be 18% which is probably as high as I'd ever ever go

on that note

this thread makes me want to tip even less

1. I have no desire to have my tip to the server spread out.. its still my money at this point hence I don't want to give it out

2. its not my problem how they are paid, its not my problem that a server has chosen that profession but somehow they did

3. i don't buy the it costs me money if I don't tip.. maybe if you have one customer and that one tips you zero.. even then, there are ways around paying taxes

4. maybe its just a few people on this thread but this hand always out appearance just rubs me the wrong way

5. tipping is one of the major reasons I do not eat out if I don't have too

6. why I eat at the bar.. I don't tip as much there either..

changing the subject to hotels

while I'm at it.. I hate the hands out FS hotels.. every time you turn around, someone wants a five spot.. I've used a bellman once in the last 10+ years just b/c I hate the tipping.. room service.. the prices are high enough then you pay 18% to have them wheel it up to your room and the add a $X service charge.. I don't think so.. an all of this is when I'm not paying for it.. I just hate the whole concept of it so I just try to participate as little as possible by eating at places where I don't have to tip

It's your problem in the sense that you are deliberately exploiting their decision for your own gain and at their expense, and it is ultimately your action that deprives them of pay. If you are a proponent of personal responsibility and accountability, as I am and as you seem to be, then you must acknowledge that while the server is at fault for working in an unfair industry, you are at fault for exploiting that unfairness by directly depriving them of their expected pay. Sure, maybe it's unfair that the employer put you in that position to begin with... nevertheless, you must accept that you are exploiting that unfairness.

Out of curiosity, do you apply this same philosophy to everything? For example, do you feel that Board of Health regulations regarding restaurant sanitation should be dissolved, because if customers get sick, it's due to their own decisions to eat at unsanitary restaurants? Do you feel that OSHA and Worker's Comp regulations should be dissolved because if employees get injured, it's because of their own decisions to work at places with unsafe conditions? Yes, these are hyperbolic questions... but I'm curious as to whether you follow the logic of complete personal responsibility to these inevitable ends.

Isn't that exactly what you're doing now? You already know exactly what you're getting into, and you have even more control over things, because you can choose after the fact to pay more or less depending on your perceived quality of food and service. If tips were banned and prices raised, you would have less control after the fact.

You're not going to know any better whether you will receive good service or not if tips were banned and prices raised. You're not going to know any better what price you will pay, because you can already know what price you'll pay. The difference is pure semantics.

Technically, then, it's not your job to pay for any of the employees... why do you support tipping at all, in that case?

Because someone served us directly. Someone took our order, made sure that we had full glasses of ice water, stopped by to see if we needed anything once our order was served, timed the serving of food, fixed the problem if the kitchen made a mistake....that is all direct service to us. That gets a tip.

I tip the manicurist who does my nails for the very same reason. She doesn't pool her tips with those who clean the salon, wash the towels, or refill the lotions. She performs the service of giving manicures; she gets the full tips and she alone.

Then stay away from full-service hotels. Full-service means tipping. Try a Courtyard by Marriott.

If it costs the employee money when I don't tip, that's all the more reason to tip little or nothing for bad service. I've been in situations where a bartender would clearly prefer to flirt with a group of men and ignore me and my gf (ie no menu, slow drinks, etc) because they represent a better tipping opportunity. Fine, but she's not coming out ahead in the long run. I also don't pay for things that don't involve a real service opportunity, like tipping when I pick up takeout, or when I have to pay before I can evaluate the service, like ordering coffee (and I usually get plain drip).

In cases where tipping is warranted I'm happy to tip. 15% pre tax for doing your job. 20% for doing it well (usually the case). More if you did something special like rush a meal as I'm on my way to the airport.

By the way, the reason I asked what I did above is because in many UA threads, you have (rightly) railed against employees who are unhappy with UA and put the customer in the line of fire of their unhappiness. In fact, I quote:But by your philosophy, if customers suffer, it is due to their own decisions to fly with an airline where (some number of) employees provide poor service; it's not the employees' problem. If it is unprofessional to allow customers to suffer due to an employee's grievance with the employer, why then is it perfectly acceptable to allow employees to suffer due to a customer's grievance with the employer?

In cases where the host also serves you directly, e.g. by taking your name for the waitlist, making sure you are seated on time and in order, walking you to your table, pulling out your chair, giving you menus, making sure you're familiar with the restaurant, etc... would you also tip them? In cases where the busser serves you directly, e.g. by clearing your dishes and/or de-crumbing your table between multiple courses, would you also tip them? In those cases, you receive direct service from more than one person - why should they not all get tips? It seems disingenuous to suggest that some servicepeople should get tips and others should not; either they all should, or they all should not.

(By the way, for the record: it may seem as if I am in support of tipping. I am not. I would love it if the "social requirement" of tipping were abolished, and things worked much the same as in Europe - with essentially only small change left to express gratitude. However, while tipping remains a custom, I disagree with making people who rely on tips suffer if I use their services, just because I disagree with the custom.)

In other words, "How can I make it possible for you to stiff the people you would otherwise share tips with, people who will make your job miserable if they catch wind of what you are doing? How can I ensure you will be the least liked waiter in the restaurant?"

Next, how do you plan on enforcing that once you leave the establishment? Ask for an accounting of the server's tip income and what they shared with other workers?

The host taking our name from a waiting list? What waiting list? When we make a reservation, we're not put on some waiting list. When we arrive at the time of the reservation, we expect to be seated momentarily. When the host takes us to our table, no, we don't tip. At places like Le Perigord the host (or as he calls himself, the captain) expects to be tipped. We went there once for a special occasion and never returned. Back to wait lists.... We don't go to restaurants to sit and wait for a table. If they don't take reservations and they're busy, we go someplace else. So I can't answer your question about waiting list tipping.

No. He's not paid to do things we request like waiters are.

That's not my problem...if they are being stiffed by their employer, that's THEIR problem. That said, if some busboy does something above and beyond his duties (like maybe gets us another waiter if the one we have is bad or does the work of the waiter because the waiter is somehow missing), then yes, I would tip him directly in cash.

For average service, I'll just tip based on what the bill says. I don't care how the money is divided. But on extraordinary service, you bet I'll do what I can to see that those who go above and beyond get paid for that service. ^

It's a pity....a bad experience with a waiter might cause us to tip either nothing or something like a nickel. The cooks and other staff might have done their jobs well but they won't get money because the server screwed it up. It's ridiculous that they should be punished for bad service perpetrated by others.

@analise
You are making no [deleted by moderator] sense. [Unduly personalized comment deleted by moderator.]
Queenofcoach has clearly (and accurately) outlined the tipping/tip-out system in the US. If you can’t get it or understand how tip outs ALSO benefit your server and eventually YOU (and other customers), then, well.. I dunno.

… and for the record, tip-outs and their %’s to other employees are dictated by the restaurant owner/proprietor.

I apologize for not being psychic and knowing that you always make reservations. That said... why not tip the host who takes your reservation information? After all, he/she is doing what you request.

Great, so now my dinner is ruined because my waiter is a lousy tipper. Not a problem in non-tipping countries. Also don't have to worry about vendettas from waiters who believe they have been poorly tipped by you previously and so will give you bad service going forward.

I have said several times that I don't really like the tipping culture. I wish it were different here in the US. It's nice to visit other countries where tipping is not such an issue.

However... that's the way it is here in the US. Don't like it? Don't travel to the US. If you are in the US, don't patronize establishments where tipping is customary and expected. Eat at home, buy fast food or take-out.

If you do decide to patronize establishments where tipping is customary and expected, then tip appropriately. If you don't tip appropriately, you will be called a Big Jerk by anyone who notices. If the service or food was really poor, ask to speak to the manager and tell that person, face-to-face, instead of just stiffing the tip.

That's just the way it is. Don't like it? Eat at home. If you are not in the US, don't come here. You are not particularly welcome if you act like a Big Jerk to American workers.

Not found at some fancy white table cloth place, but Friendly's comes to mind - at least that's how I think it was done there back on the 60's-70's when my high school friends would have been working there. Think along the lines of lunch counters; a place where one server takes your order, a different server delivers it, whoever passing by refills your coffee or water, and a 4th individual cashiers. Truly a team effort.

Exactly my point. All the restaurant staff, servers, bussers, food runners, cooks, restroom cleaners, everyone works together to provide you with a pleasant experience. If one screws up, all suffer. If they all do well, they all partake in the tip.

It's called TEAMWORK.

You have a nice evening out to eat when all team members pull together to do a good job for you.

Exactly. You posted just before I did.

this thread also brings me to another question

why is it expected to tip on take out, to go orders at places like

chilji's to go type places etc??

I'm not a fan of tipping, but since it's expected in the US I try and remember to tip.

However, I'm still very unsure of what is owed to whom.

What I find especially confusing is situations where a service charge has been added to the bill. Do you tip? Is that the tip? Do you tip a little but not as much as if it hadn't been added?

the moment i see one added to the bill, that would be the max i'd ever pay, if anything I go downward based on service.. i can't say i've ever even considered adding to the service charge ( I presume you mean tip)

the most obnoxious thing ever is a second line to add more

I don't tip on take-out.

If the place delivers to my home, I tip the delivery person.

Obviously hit a nerve here. Since it's America, and America is all about free market, you should welcome the customer paying the price they see fit. If the establishment/server makes it clear that a tip of a minimum amount is a contractual obligation (before service is entered into) then tip it is. If the server doesn't like that, they are welcome to find another job in the free market which they do like (or, live the American dream and start their own business).

If I'm not required by law to tip, and I'm not required by contractual agreement to tip, then don't expect me to tip. Even in America. It's your fault for not stating it as a requirement at the outright.

If a service charge has been added to the bill, on top of the stated menu prices, then that is the tip. If the service was really great and you feel so moved as to tip some more, then sure, go ahead. If the service was "normal", then just pay the bill with the service charge.

I have to say that I rarely see this kind of service charge added to a bill UNLESS it's a large party. Restaurants will typically have some kind of notice on their menu that a grautity will be added automatically for parties of X or more. (Usually eight.)

This protects the restaurant from a situation where the person paying the bill for a large party stiffs the tip, either intentionally or not.

Having said that... the tip is still voluntary. I was in a large party, once, where the service was just horrible. The restaurant environment left a great deal to be desired, other words, it was not just the server's fault. We called the manager over and negotiated down the tip, for good reason. This was done after all in the group agreed that the service was way, way below par and that a poor tip was appropriate. (All involved were Americans, and were nice people who would normally tip properly.)

I'll add this.

Many establishments, including restaurants, have some kind of notice to the effect of:

"We reserve the right to refuse service to any customer."

So long as that refusal is not based on legally protected characteristics like race, religion, national origen, disabilities, the place can refuse service.

(Note: By national origen I do not mean nationality. Refusing to serve people with Italian-sounding last names is discrimination by national origen, and is illegal. Refusing to serve people with Italian citizenship is discrimination by nationality and is legal.)

Thus: If the restaurant manager gets the impression that you are a poor tipper, that manager is perfectly within his/her rights to refuse service to you, based on a poor tipper profile. If, for example, the restaurant manager notices that Martians are usually poor tippers, and when challenged the Martians say "We don't tip at home, Earthling, why tip here?", the restaurant manager can refuse service to anyone who is Martian. (He cannot refuse service just based on a Martian-sounding last name or green skin.)

Furthermore, a good manager in a good restaurant with a good staff will do exactly that, just to protect the staff. Why fill up tables with notorious bad tippers when, instead, you can fill up tables with decent tippers and keep your staff happy?

Or, if business is slower, why not stick the bad tipping Martians at the table next to the restrooms and just give them indifferent service? Who cares? They won't tip even if you knock yourself out for them. Save your good tables and better service for Earthlings who do know how to tip.

[Quote deleted by Moderator to conform to the earlier deletion of the quoted post.]

I'm just annoyed with people who say "Back home in my country, we don't tip. Therefore, why should I tip in while in the US? The Americans should do it our way."

I don't travel to other countries and say stuff like that. I follow local customs. I bag my own groceries while in Europe. I refer to the "lift" and the "toilet" instead of the "elevator" and the "restroom" while in the UK. I eat pizza with a knife and fork, instead of picking it up with my fingers as is usual in the US.

Sure, it's a free market. I suspect the manager would be better off spending his time counting his cash pile and just stick up a sign saying minimum 10% service charge and call it a day.

But in America, tipping is optional. Otherwise it would be mandated by law. So when in America, I do as the American legal system allows. May not seem fair to all, but it is what it is, and so expect it to be treated for what it is.

Born in the US, and not a tightwad at all.


Not my problem.


You seem to misunderstand the business relationship that is happening here. I am entering a transaction with the establishment, not the employee. Why should I hurt the business just because you think I should overpay for my meal? How the business wants to treat their employees is up to them, asking me to pay bribery because you don't like their pay structure is, again, not my problem.

I am not depriving the employee of anything other than a bribe, and a bribe that some here feel must be paid even for poor performance. Sorry, but I don't participate in bribery.

What the employer does with the employees is a free market issue. If waiters don't like how the pay is structured they need to find a new job. If the pool of candidates for wait staff dries up the wages will go up. Simple supply and demand, and it happens all over the country.


It appears you have answered your own questions.

But to provide you some insight, no, I agree with government rules regarding health and safety.

No, full service means I am paying the hotel more money for more service. How they handle their employees is up to them.

To start: I am British and live in Continental Europe.

Personally I prefer the european method of having service included in the price and tipping where a tip indicates at least "good" service or better. However when in the US, I know that tipping is expected and will tip accordingly for "average" service and above.

If I receive poor service then you will not get a tip, regardless of which country I am in or what the server thinks s/he is entitled to.

If the establishment has a built in service charge, then I will tip the same way I do in Europe (i.e. a small tip for "good" service, a larger tip for very good service). If you put the credit card slip down for me and expressively say "this is where you put in the amount for my tip" (happened to me in a higher class Spanish restaurant), then you've just done yourself out of a tip.

I tip for numerous things (some of which are not customary in the country where I live, because I appreciate good service). These include; taxi drivers, hairdressers, manicurists, delivery people (take-aways, not postmen/Fedex deliveries!), tailor.

I'm not tight-fisted and I generally live by the "When in Rome" rule, but at the end of the day I don't see why I should pay anything more than the "official" price for a mediocre result. Indeed if it was a dire result then I wouldn't even expect to pay the "official" price (i.e. i would be taking it up with the manager).