Christine - investigator??? Please....
 

As a trained accident investigator who currently works for a civil aviation regulatory authority (three letters ... starts with F....), it never ceases to amaze me when I read statements, such as the following, from aviation "experts":

Quote: "...Christine Negroni, an investigator for the aviation law firm Kreindler & Kreindler of New York, said in an e-mail that under international guidelines the Legacy should not have been at an odd-numbered altitude because it was heading northwest.
''All westbound flights fly at even numbers with 1,000 feet separation. East bound flights fly at odd numbers, same 1,000 separation,'' she said. ''Since the American pilots were flying northwest, they should not have been at 37,000 since that's odd.''

FYI, within the past few years, most airspace around the globe has been redesignated as "RVSM" or "reduced vertical separation minimum" airspace. South Americans were early adopters; Brazilian domestic airspace is RVSM airspace. Ditto for US domestic airspace, since January 2005. So, forget those old altitude rules-of-thumb you might have heard (FL 290, 330, 370, & 410 eastbound; FL 310, 350, 390 westbound), one-thousand foot separation (290, 300, 310, ... 350, 360, 370, etc.) is perfectly legal altitude for aircraft on instrument flight plans under Air Traffic control.

Be suspicious if you hear something other than a whole-thousand, tho; FL 295, 333, 367, etc. sounds fishy.

Here's a link on RVSM: http://www.faa.gov/ATS/ato/car-sam.htm

Finally, one head-scratcher for me - How did the smaller jet survive the impact with the minimal amount of damage described, able to fly on to a safe landing, while the larger aircraft was damaged to such an extent that it was unable to continue in controlled flight? Sounds like there is more to this story; perhaps the 737 pilots did not react properly to a survivable impact....

While hers was the quote I was referring to as being ridiculous (I misidentified her as a lawyer), I do think she understands RVSM to some degree as she is saying planes are to be separated by 1,000 vertical feet. She's saying the Legacy should have been at FL360 with the 737 at FL370. What she doesn't realize is that ATC uses "wrong way" altitudes all the time as traffic permits/requires. So the Legacy simply being at FL370 doesn't in itself prove anything.

There are a lot of theories on why the larger plane would go down when the smaller one wouldn't. You might want to check out the thread on the Pprune (professional pilots rumor network) board. There's also some speculation there based on the damage that the 737 pilot maneuvered in such a way that he saved the Legacy.

I recommend that thread; there are some very knowledgable posters there and also a few hysterical (in all senses) ones as may be expected.

The nature and extent of the damage to the 737 has not been released yet. Considering the forces involved even a glancing blow from the Legacy winglet could do severe damage. If it was a wing-to-wing collision one possible outcome would be the 737 being in an asymmetrical lift situation - virtually unrecoverable. Another scenario is that the 737 crew saw the Legacy and took such violent evasive action that they lost control. Apparently (from Pprune) even 37000 ft may not be enough to recover.

The inference that because the 737s landing gear was in the down position they were trying to land is almost certainly erroneous. Popping the gear to slow an uncontrolled descent is a recognized action - it's worked before.

My post had nothing to do with Brazil (although it is true that Brazil has an extraordinarly high murder rate). If any family member sought revenge against someone they believed was responsibile for the crash, it wouldn't be the first time.

http://english.pravda.ru/hotspots/di...-switzerland-0

dhuey, you are not worthy an answer.

News about the legacy:

http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/folha/c...5u126810.shtml
Long story short: There was a problem with legacy's transponder. They're doing a recall on oct 17th. FAA said that.
The pilots' version went on air just now...And they don't match. Apparently they were on Automatic Pilot when the accident happened.
Either way the boxes are in Canada and we'll know for sure from them.

Can you elaborate? What did they say that doesn't match?

I was having dinner. :(
From what I heard the pilot's version didn't exactly match the second one's.
They must put it on some website pretty soon. I'll post it here once they do.
And they didn't show the interview or anything. It was just a statement from those who are investigating.

It is true, though, that they tried to reach the controllers.
They also showed for the first time the place where the bodies were found...
They buried the 737 pilot's body today and found the documentation about the flight plan.
154 white roses were thrown above the accident area.
114 bodies were found. Only a few identified. The others are waiting for DNA identification.
There is also a sim of the accident. But I don't think it's necessary to post it here as it is still considered as speculation.
Americans are already here trying to figure out what happened. As I said they were the ones who discovered the transponder's problem.
About the legacy's pilots...please, stop it. We're not like that...
Anyway, if you know a web page to translate portuguese-english, you'll find the whole thing on
http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/folha/e.../2006/voo1907/

Well, I guess that's it for now.

And you, mHolanda, are off to a very poor start on FlyerTalk. You'll soon discover that such insults are very unpopular around here.

My point above is that what happened in Switzerland to the air traffic controller could happen in Brazil to the pilots. It has nothing to do with either of those nations, so no one should feel insulted.

I don't want to start anything here. It's just that this particular subject happens to very important to us. I am sure you can understand that.
If you didn't mean to be insulting, I apologize for my answer. But indeed it was. You are not the first one thinking we might just kill the pilots to get revenge. Geez, revenge what? An accident?? I don't care about the Switzerland thing, cause we are not them. Damn, they are inside a HOTEL. Anyone could go there. And yet their families are with them. Instead, you could show your worries about the accident itself. Like we do when something involving deaths happen with you or any other country. Show concern. Ask for news about the issue. I'm sure we can provide it easier as it was here.
That's all ...

My concern re the pilots is simply that a single grief-stricken and enraged family member would go over the edge. It could happen anywhere in the world, and of course it makes no sense, logically, to seek such revenge for someone's accident.

I do have sympathy for the survivors of those who died in the crash, and as I mentioned above, I hope the investigators can quickly find what went wrong to prevent a future tragedy.

I can honestly say that if we reverse the countries and pilot nationalities here (i.e., Brazillian pilots suspected of causing similiar accident in USA), I would be just as concerned for the pilots' safety. I would hope that in that situtation, police in the USA would give Brazillian pilots some protection during the course of the investigation.

I understand. Well, I can't say I would be concerned about the pilots if it were any country other than The US. But I get what you're saying.
I'm really sorry about my rude behaviour.

Now, the legacy, as well as the pilots can't leave Brazil until everything is finished.

Well, I feel comfortable to bring this up now. People are suggesting that the legacy hit the 737 on its wing. Close to the turbine. Then the 737's wing had fallen and hit the tail. Therefore making the pilot lose control and the plane fall vertically. There are also suggestions that the plane had lost its cabin during the fall. And then desintegrating ( not sure if that's the word ) as that would explain how the bodies were found. Now, as you, I just can't believe that such a small piece of the legacy's wing would do such thing to a boing. What do you guys think about this explanation? Is it possible?

No worries, mHolanda. I realize this is a sensitive matter, and I'm sorry for your country's loss in this tragedy.

By the way, Brazillian music is among my favorites. I'm going to see Gilberto Gil when he comes to the San Francisco Bay Area in a few months.

You got me worried here. When you said you liked brazilian music I thought you were talking about something like pagode. Eww.
Gilberto Gil is indeed one of the best singers here.

Thank you for being so nice. :)

Here you go:
http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/folha/c...5u126855.shtml
It says that Lepore had gone to the bathroom and once he came back Jan Paul was trying to contact the base. Lepore says he felt no bump when they hit the 737. Jan Paul says he felt it.
Jan Paul also said the equipment seemed to work just fine.
Both said they got no warning what-so-ever from the equipment, and that they were unable to see the boing. As they said, they only found out about the boing several hours later.
FAB is still trying to find out wether the equipment gave the alert or not.
FAB also said that the transponder could stop working if the crew hit a certain button for more than 5 seconds.
Strange that on Sharkey's interview, he says something about the boing tilting to one side in order to avoid the crash. How come the boing saw the legacy and not the other way around?

Luckily I don't have any experience in this type of accident but I don't think it is unusual to have differing eyewitness accounts of the same accident.