This isn't a logical fallacy, it is an empirical fact. Since we are talking about post counts one way to gauge the level of involvement a user has with OMNI is by looking at their OMNI posts. I don't care whether they lurk or don't lurk; I care about their activity. Maybe I should have been more clear.

But you think the those who don't support Randy's decision have all spoken up? Sounds like a double-edge sword to me.

I have no problem either way. I haven't seen many Coupon Connection Waste Of Time threads.

You misunderstood me. Please read again what I said. I didn't say "ALL" at all. I know better not to over-generalize.

I said among those pro-count, SOME were very vocal about it. Just be aware being vocal doesn't give you the representation of being the majority.
In case my English is not good enough, everyone is entitled to his/her OWN opinion. A systematic measure needs to be implemented before we know where the majority stand on any issue. Before that measure takes place, no one can self-claim his personal view is the majority one, even when he speaks loudly.

That's all fine and good, although I'm not sure how it furthers the conversation with respect to this actual proposal. You're saying that we can't know the intentions of other FTers without asking them. Fine, I'll concede that obvious point. Is there anything else you'd like to add that I'm missing here? We obviously aren't going to have a FT-wide vote on this topic, so we can only go by what and how many people respond with their opinions...

lin821writes:

Whether you agree or disagree, as you have every right to do, those posts are facts. A post count is unequivocally a gague of how often a member visits and participates on FlyerTalk and how often they contribute.

Is it a perfect, flawless gauge? No, of course not, but it is the best gauge we have right now.

I personally just don't happen to be egomaniacal enough to think that I have the right to judge the value of other folks posts, nor do I know anyone else who IMHO has such flawless and perfect judgment that I would assign them that task. We are all individuals with different needs, values and ideas about what matters. If there are folks who like to play counting games, power to them. Seriously, what harm can it possibly do?

Typically TalkBoard does not initiate polls, but it is certainly technologically possible. Maybe this would be a good time to start a poll. As long as everyone understands that the results have no binding effect, it might be a good thing and provide Randy with some very important feedback.

Here is an idea I posted in the private TB forum:

"It would also be very interesting to see how many people would change their mind if Randy all of a sudden came out in favor of post counts. That would be even more truly edifying for him, as he would then know who gives him their honest, heartfelt, opinions and who just tells him what they think he wants to hear."

True , but while that would be entertaining spectator sport, it will simply remain a fun 'what if'.

This issue remains divisive because there is still a major tension between those who see FT as a pure information source and others as that, plus a community of like-minded travellers.

I don't see the fight ending as the same issues will pop up to offend some people, who will not let it die until they get their will enforced. At the same time, we are all aware of the problems and it is a question of how lax and tolerantly does OMNI get policed by all of us?

At the same time as this debate, we can all enjoy FT (if we just ignore this forum for a little while )

I'm open to all ideas on the post count issue itself. I still believe proponents used bad judgment in calling for a vote right away rather than a discussion.

Since I view the post count issue as trivial, I would give Randy the benefit of the doubt whichever way he decided. As long as he didn't flip it back and forth weekly just to annoy everyone who pays attention to post count.

This thread is teaching me something important about FT: There is no issue so trivial that people won't argue about it vociferously.

Sure it would. Care to bet as to whether it'll happen?

What would really be nice would be to actually respect his opinion. Seems to me that he heard it from the last TB and decided differently anyway.

Because one gives someone else their heartfelt opinion does not always beget that the recipient wants it.

My vote goes in favor of counting all posts.

Having said this, I think that it would be a good idea to create an OMNI game sub-forum where all the counting threads and smilie threads would go.

Yes... I realize there is no 100% scientific way to determine which threads are positively "gamers" but the practical way of doing this would be to monitor the threads that have the most traffic and fall under the general definition of gaming and have those moved (if they are not started where they should be in the first place).

My final question is.... where do I send an application to get my FT Evangelist title removed and have it replaced by " Señor Malbec " ...?

That makes sense, but it's a moderation nightmare.

It's far easier to just eliminate all OMNI posts from the count.

I'd be in favor of a per-sub-forum post count, but I don't think that's a common, or even available, feature in any forum software out there. If it is available, it's likely that it's cost-prohibitive.

Rather presumptuous of you to think that those of us supporting this decision are just doing so because it is what Randy has decided. No need to go through all the trouble though, just start at the beginning of the thread before he made his decision. Or go back through the old discussion and see where people stood then.

I don't think it has that much bearing on this proposal though as you certainly could be for counting the posts, and still have enough respect for Randy to accept his decision whether you agree with it or not.

This has nothing to do with whether someone respects Randy or will accept his decision.

TalkBoard will accept any decision that Randy makes (and, indeed, has no choice but to do so).

For all of that, it has an obligation to give Randy what it considers to be its best advice -- whether it is what he wants to hear or not.

Indeed, Randy has accepted TB recommendations to establish forums he opposed. On the other hand, there was an occasion when TalkBoard failed to pass a motion (giving it only a 5-4 majority instead of the required supermajority) and Randy decided to put it into effect anyhow.

This means to me that Randy pays careful attention to TalkBoard decisions, gives them quite a bit of weight, and will generally implement them even if he feels otherwise. At the same time, however, he reserves for himself the right to make the final decision -- he doesn't allow anybody to push him around.

IMHO, In a perfect world, OMNI Posts should count. But like with reputation, it is being abused by a few members. They are using what was once a few, and has now has become a lot of silly contentless games as a vehicle to get to "Evangelist" or "Legend" "status".

I'd support one of three things:

1. OMNI Posts no longer count (easiest)
2. Delete the game threads on a periodic basis. When the posts are deleted, the counts go with them.
3. Get rid of the titles (Evangelist, Legend).

That is your opinion. Mine is different.

In the case that you mention, was there ever a motion made to recommend he change his mind as is being done here or did the TB accept his decision and move on?