Here's what I don't get. Somehow attaining "Evangelist" status by typing "Kip Hawley is an idiot", "TSA sucks" and comparing any form of aviation security to the Nazis is considered a better contribution to FT than someone who can count to 100,000.

So if the rationale behind removing OMNI post counts is truly to keep people from reaching 10,000 posts from posting worthless things, why are the TS&S posts still counting?

Too bad you feel this way, but catch ya later. I'd be happy to discuss more if you want to come back. ^

Stop that. Right now. You are going to make me bust out laughing! :D

Disenfranchisement? Why not antidisestablishmentarianism? I can see it now; soon someone will propose we scrap post counts and adopt letter counts instead thereby making the bigger the word count higher and thus the debate much more sophisticated. I call it the Scrabble effect. :p

Thanks for hammering my point home. Thats what I've been trying to figure out this entire time :cool::cool:

I cant speak for magiciansampras directly but I would be willing to bet that if all the forums got the same and equal treatment that OMNI did that we wouldnt be even having this debate...

Make it all retroactive but make sure its ALL non-mile/point forums otherwise we are no further down this road than we were previously

But if OMNI got the same and equal treatments that other forums did, OMNI would not be OMNI for very long.... :)

To me, I am willing to give up post counts to have an OMNI that is looser and laxer than other forums.... a small price to pay indeed.

One can have same and equal treatment for post counts and unequal treatment for post substance. @:-) :)

^^^^^

If we started not counting, the "Kip Hawley is an idiot", "TSA sucks", the Birthday threads, the lounge threads, and the like wouldn't we be guilty of floccinaucinihilipilification for all of the posts in these threads other non-mile and point forums like what was done to OMNI?

While some people may see them as anoying and useless (there are times when I certainly do), I would submit that there is no real difference between them and OMNI. They all serve a useful purpose for the community as a whole. I may not appreciate some of their purposes, but they do serve a purpose and for that I submit they should all be treated the same.

I think all of the forums should be treated equally, with all respects including moderation. Right now there is the perception that all forums are equal, but some are more equal then others and I think this perception needs to be addressed before any long term solution can truely be found.

I've already PM'd my vote to the TB members so they know where I stand. Actually I posted it on this thread but my concern was that it got lost in all the crap going back/forth.

I'm not willing to get into the over & over debate on this thread - and last year's, & yes I DID read all 26 pages of last year's thread on a similar topic. Same ole, same ole quite frankly on those who are pro/against. :rolleyes:

But for the record - I have no (fill in the blank ;) ) envy of those who have Evangalist/Legand after their handles, and while I have the the big E (LOL) I truly don't give 2 cents. Take away the title & guess what - I still will have contributed to FT. I think I have contributed as much as I have learned, and I'm much more humble about what I've learned in terms of travel/miles/points & just truly hope to give back as much as I've gained.

I did NOT post to get a title. I did NOT post to get to a certain post count. MY worth is not determined by # of posts, much less posts in a certain forum :rolleyes: That one still bogles my mind. And before anyone asks, I actually lost a lot of posts w/ Randy's new action so it's not a well it doesn't affect you.

Here's the good news (IMO) - the debate on THIS motion at least ends on Fri, so hopefully we won't have to deal w/ it much longer. Oh wait - that would be as naive as me thinking the airlines are going to put their customers first ;) But maybe it will stop for a while. Hope springs eternal.

Cheers.

I am proud to say I seconded and voted for this motion in May 06 (which at that time failed) :

http://flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=563745

Moved by ScottC and seconded by ozstamps

Quote:

that posts made in the "Omni" forum of Flyertalk do not count towards ones visible post count. This will not be implemented retroactively, but will take place if the motion passes on any new posts made in "Omni".


Very pleased to see Randy has now decided to take this exact path. ^ ^ ^

There were figures given on the private TB forum at that time of some members having 10,000 plus posts, or nearly their entire post counts, in "Counting down from 10 Million" or "Mongolian Word Association" threads, or "Guess what Toothpaste Brand I'll use tomorrow" etc, etc.

Fun for some, but it adds nothing whatever to points and miles and travel knowledge, which is what FT was founded for, and is truly what it should do better than anyone else.

I am sure if FT added an on-line Sudoku portal, it would gain millions of posts too ... from folks who do may not have any clue about travel and miles and points - or interest in either.

The manic yells and screams and hollering from those here likely to be impacted can be still seen on the public thread from that time. @:-)

Anyone who wants to waste several hours a week adding to "Counting down from 10 Million" should be free to do so .... no issues at all with that, except they might consider asking for a "Get A Life" book for Christmas - IMHO. :D

Now those posts will not count, which is how it always should have been - IMHO.

IIRC at an earlier time Randy REMOVED all OMNI post counts from member tallies, so the current move seems more than fair, and could have been a lot worse, I'll remind those complaining about it. :)

No TB member voting for the current motion represents this member's POV, and I hope if by chance it succeeds, that Randy ignores it.

Can someone who is anti-post counting in OMNI please explain how the majority of what occurs in the TSA forum is any different than what occurs in OMNI?

I understand that people dont like OMNI and frankly I'm fine with that. What I dont get is how the TSA is acceptable to post-pad in and yet OMNI has what appears to be a witch hunt against it.

While I don't spend a lot of time in the Travel&Security forum (although I do check in periodically) I don't agree w/ your premise that those who post there are 'post-padding'. And for the record I'm not 'anti-Omni'. OVMV.

Cheers.

I think the member you need to PM about that is Randy Petersen. ;)

My best guess is that the TSA forum relates directly to TRAVEL ON AIRPLANES. And OMNI does not.

But as always I could be wrong. :D

I post little on either Forum, but the TSA forum, despite a few folks huffing and puffing the same old stuff for years on end, ad nauseum does offer some useful travel advice I find.

In the past week I have endured airport security charades in Sydney, San Francisco, London, Paris, Frankfurt, and Casablanca Morocco, and trust me they are ALL the same these days, so those who assume it is USA specific need to get out more. ;)

I think this thread is about the OMNI post counts unless I am mistaken.

Starting a new one re removing posts counts from TSA forum might be an idea if you are so minded?

Generally speaking, one has to deal with the TSA daily/weekly/monthly in the act of chasing miles and points. I cannot recall having to count backwards from 10 million, or things of that nature, in the effort to run up miles/points/status/upgrades and such (except to calm my nerves after having dealt with the very same TSA behavior I was prewarned about in TS/S).

With that said, you will note that when I broached the notion of going even further than Randy has, one of the biggest discussion (indeed, I even broadened my own horizons on the subject) was what constitutes a "non mile/point" forum.

I'd much rather be having that debate rather than kicking around the notion that Randy has deprived someone of the psychological (and matching post-count) thrill of running up thousands and thousands of posts in OMNI.

Indeed, that was your thought on the subject as well as I read it.

In other news it's official--the world will now end because ozstamps, dovster, and I are seemingly in agreement on something.

Actually, it's the TS/S Forum and it relates to all forms of travel safety and travel security. Trains, planes, automobiles and that sort of thing. :)

But I'll admit it does seem like TSA 24/7/365 more often than not.

All we now need is for cblaisd to concur, and the UN might need to declare a state of international crisis. :D

Glen

Very interesting point. I never thought of it that way. Now I have another reason for not wanting OMNI posts to count. ^

For the same reason that posts in the airline forums count when someone says AA sucks or United is the pits. For the most part, those comments are part of a longer response and all are still related to air travel. I don't think anyone has achieved "Evangelist" status by posting in TS&S like is done in OMNI.

Take a look at TS/S. There are hundreds and hundreds of posts that are simply roll-eyes and/or '"another idiot/nazi."

It's akin to someone posting in every single UA thread 'This is why UA sucks.'

Post padding? Not according to the TS/S community/culture/mods. But sure does walk like a duck.

Actually, now that I think about it, I think it may be time to change the name of the TS/S forum to the "Whinge and complain about travel security forum...' ;)

I see that you may be fishing for allies. :D Instead of classifying your above post as an effort to argue against your own motion, I'll classify it as a non-post-padding post that is fishing for allies by making the the slippery slope argument of "you will be next". That said, even as I prefer that OMNI posts count in post count totals, I am still not in favor of this motion for the reasons I mentioned before.

Same is true of many other forums.

I can think of one poster who I have personally seen type: "did you use Search?" over 100 times. Which means he must have done it many more times I'd guess.

All on airline/hotel forums.

Even that fairly curt reply may have helped a newbie find an answer about miles and points.

Mongolian Word Assocation Threads never have.

Did you use search to suss that out? ;)

(this post 'counts'....yea!) :p

Those are my points but from the other side. Why is the focus on OMNI as a whole so special then? Why not fix the real problem with OMNI (which some simple moderation could easily do) instead of trying to lessen OMNI's value to FT? OMNI provides real value to FT yet through the abuse of some posters we are going to basically relegate the whole forum to second class status instead of dealing directly with those issues?

Maybe my understanding of what OMNI is intended to be is different than mosts but I browse another forum which have a similar forum for all other posts but just pure spamming isnt allowed in there either. OMNI allows for discussions on other topics not directly related to travel. OMNI is not the issue but the abuse and gaming of certain threads in OMNI is the issue. Yet all people are doing is treating OMNI as the issue instead of focusing on the real problems

majorwibi - I think you are too new onto FT to understand that 'simple moderation' and 'OMNI' don't go well together. Moderators on that forum burned out at a scary rate, so Randy took it on himself. Basically, all of the screaming, shouting and overdramatics we've seen throughout this debate used to occur pretty much everytime a moderator took a decision someone didn't like, and Randy would be appealed to it seemed like on every occasion, usually with the claim that the moderator was politically biased. I wasn't a mod back then, just a frequenter of the forum who used to watch the popcorn threads, but it was not a good situation - and I don't believe that anything much would have changed, particularly since the residents are used to a rather loser interpretation of the TOS than the rest of the board gets...

So we now have members patting each other on the back for supporting OMNI while at the same time supporting the measure which created a double-standard (not counting posts there). Some of these same members have defended TS/S post counts. Do you see any hypocrisy in that?

majorwibi - perhaps you do not completely get it.

OMNI is a totally done deal. Kaput.

Want to argue for other Forums to join it go ahead .. free country. This is the place to start a new thread. @:-)

NO other forum has a single nonsense thread with several folks posting over 10,000 times each to it. OMNI does, and not one single post contributes to miles and points in any way, to any member.

Play away for as many hours as you have free time, by all means, but the posts do NOT count from now on. Seems fair to me. And that decision has been made.

As I said add a Sudoku portal there and voilà - 1,000,000 more posts also not related to flying or miles or points. Start a Immedaite Gun Control debate forum, and you'll add another 100,000 - 500,000 posts in months. Actually I'll join that one for sure. :D

Have a 'Right To Life' forum and add another 100,000 - 500,000 real fast. Let the Amish have a little corner to hang out in perhaps. Or the Black Panthers, Hells Angels, KKK of the friends of Ross Perot - or even Elvis Presley lookalikes. FT will look like a very badly run flea market if those moves go ahead.

It is far too fragmented and disjointed as it is now - IMHO.

Randy seems to feel FT is big enough and respected enough in its core areas that is does best, not to need to add Sudoku type frippery just to artificially boost overall post counts. Smart move.

The fact some members of the current TB are very high on that posting list in that one thread - and voted against it last time will likely mean they will again - no doubt about it in my mind. We will all see in a few days if I am correct. A lot of the TB has a very high % of their posts in OMNI, and self interest clearly seemed at play in the previous vote - IMHO, and I made that view clear at the time.

But it is now a done deal at Randy's direction. So are the Freddie's dates and locations, so are what style the fonts are around here. The system works.

All this rampaging thread is hot air to appease the huddled masses led by 2 cheerleaders. Like sending a petition to Congress signed by a few people to demand they lower income tax by 10%. Possible to do, but an ultimate waste of energy and resources.

Move onto the next crusade is pretty good advice. :D

This one is a show trial.
.

Nope.

Thanks, Jenbel, for the concise explanation of the challenges of moderating OMNI. Anyone willing to carry that load, especially Randy, deserves a lot of deference for his or her opinions on what it takes to make OMNI manageable.

How would not counting OMNI post counts going forward make moderating OMNI easier? Do the OMNI counting games really require that much moderator involvement as a result of the activities of FT members in those threads?

It's a red herring. I'm glad Glen has joined the "move on, nothing to see here crowd" along with other former TB members who have the same standing as me, though. Although they seem to try to intimate otherwise.

I agree that purely post padding game threads are not a problem for moderation. There's nothing inflammatory about a 5-digit number. Furthermore, post padding is not a major challenge for moderators on FT. It pollutes the forum, but that's a separate issue. So your point is valid.

I am not patting anyone on the back.

This motion is simply about whether or not OMNI posts should count... it is not about posts in other forums....

I personally have never wanted OMNI posts to count.... and I have been consistent over the several years of discussions on this topic.

Are there posts in other forums that could be construed at "post padding"? Of course! Are they all deleted.... I doubt it.

Bottom line for me: I do not believe any other member will think less of a member who does not get post count credit for an OMNI post. So, I do not buy into the "disinfranchised" argument. Members who think less of themselves as a result of fewer post ticks need to figure out how to deal with that loss.

While I participate in the "wasting time" threads myself when I want a distraction, I never thought about what it would do to my post counts... just as I do not think about the fact I do not get post credits in Coupon Connection.... and I post a great deal there.

William

You are probably correct that I am too new to FT to fully understand how things used to be with OMNI. I just paint the picture as I see it from 2005 until present. And I am having trouble understanding why this apparent double standard allows to exist but I will accept your explanation that I just dont understand the history enough to fully be able to understand the position.

I do moderation on a couple of smaller forums and I know it can be difficult but not impossible to work something like this out. Realistically members usually can police the majority of issue threads once the rules are well defined and concise.


I apologize if my response below comes off like an attack but when I feel that someone is talking down to me I tend to not react well.
Do you even read what I post or just go and start attacking based on what you think you have read? I'm not arguing for OMNI to stay or even stay like it is. I really have no vested interest in what happens to OMNI other than I dont like that I see a glaring double standard being applied.



My argument has never been about post counts...


I'm glad you think the system works. I agree with you about 95% of the time on that but I'm still trying to figure out the double standard.

If you would read our (magiciansampras' and mine) arguments you should be able to see that I dont really care about the masses of OMNI. And if I cannot speak my mind and ask questions about how things work on FT then why does TB even exist?


I dont do crusades (and based on my post count that should be fairly obvious to you). I hold very little value in peoples post counts but thats primarily because I am educated enough in the travel world to read the BS from the truth.

What I'm really not liking about your posts is essentially you have just attempted to treat me like a little kid with the whole "I'm more mature at FT than you are so just shut up and deal with it" post. Jenbel did a much better job explaining to me how I might not have enough historical view on FT pre-2005 to fully understand the evolution of OMNI.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I see a glaring double standard here and thats all I'm concerned with. Post counts are meaningless to me as they show no measure of actual knowledge but instead show a large amount of time/passion on a certain forum.

It's a corollary of "Do you know who I am (was)?"

Don't worry. Some of the old members feel they have more standing than we newer members. They use joining date as a relevant metric while claiming that metrics such as post count are irrelevant and only content matters. It's quite transparent, trust me.

The first hint is when they quote other TB votes they took place in 2-5 years ago.

While this whole thing is likely a done deal, the way it was done and then the reasoning invented after the fact was just shabby and assume that we users weren't very bright (or could use search). I find that more disturbing. It'll all blow over, but some of us won't forget about it.

Out of sight out of mind is what I keep coming up with. If OMNI doesnt count WRT to post counts then it would be extremely easy to ignore for those who are worried about post count.

I dont think they do. They are pretty obviously a violation of the FT TOS and should have been cut off at the knees when the first started up a few months ago. For moderation time concerns I understand why that didnt happen but once the games are removed from OMNI how is that forum much different in content from some of the other FT forums?

I disagree.

It is also about presuming to tell the host of this bulletin board that all users must be consulted on all changes and that he is incapable or not permitted to make and implement some decisions on his own. Other FlyerTalkers may interpret this motion differently.

I disagree. If it was about that the motion would say that; it doesn't.

OFTMITMD.