I have been around as either a poster or a lurker almost from the beginning and have been disappointed to see the deterioration of the spirit of Flyer Talk.

Here are the things I believe about Flyer Talk.

1. Almost all of the posters here are smarter than the average bear.
2. Almost all of the posters here really care about Flyer Talk (we actually come here because we are addicted) and want to do their part to make it work.
3. Since the inception of FT Travel and random post movement there has been a lot of confusion and hurt feelings among honest, well meaning posters who just don't know where or why to post.
4. Many Flyer Talkers have expressed frustration and disappointment in the changes in Flyer Talk.
5. Many very valuable Flyer Talkers have lost interest, quit posting and/or drastically reduced their postings because of this confusion.
6. There may be some very logical (but unexplained) reason for these changes.
7. Most Flyer Talkers would love to help if they understood the logic and the goals.

Might it be possible for someone who really knows (probably Randy or a staff member) to explain the rationale for the changes, and the goals they hope to attain. I am certain that if this were made clear to all Flyer Talk members, that it would go a long way to regain the spirit of joyful cooperation that once reigned on Flyer Talk.

These are concerns that I have heard expressed by dozens of Flyer Talkers over the past year and concerns that I personally would like to see addressed (politely, of course).

Some explanation, if there is one, regarding the "Moderator" issue would be very nice to hear as well!

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum95/HTML/002482.html

Randy has explained himself MANY times in the past.

Why do you both feel that he has to explain himself at all?

FT is alive and well. It is IMO, better off today than it has ever been.

If FT is not to your liking, a simple solution would be to move on. I am quite sure there are FT copycats out there. Maybe one of them could be your idea of perfection.

It is entirely possible that the goals of and rationale for these changes have been explained, however, if that is the case, they have not been well publicized. As result, I and the other flyer talkers with whom I have discussed this matter, simply haven't seen and don't understand them. Could someone please provide a link?

All one need do is look at the high number of posts on Miles Buzz which are continually locked and moved, to see that the process and format are not well understood. Providing an explanation of the goals that the new format hopes to achieve, why the format is necessary, or a switching to more intuitive format would most certainly enhance the functionality of Flyer Talk.

I truly believe that almost all Flyer Talkers are good people who really do want to do the best for Flyer Talk. The only reason they post in the wrong place is that they don't understand the "right" place.

Please also see:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum...ML/000047.html

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum...ML/000058.html

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum...ML/000035.html

---

Would you please be kind enough to post a link to the long awaited explanation of the eventual outcome of the rather lengthy deliberation over the "Moderator" issue I'd referenced above, since I apparently missed it thanks! The last I'd heard, it was only "#6 on the list" on 3/29 and that, in due course, "it will be addressed."

Would you also please indicate where anyone said that anyone has to do anything here?

Are you pleased to see the diminished participation of other FT'ers that Punki alludes to? Or is it that she is not entitled to express her opinion(s)? Is FT "...better off today than it has ever been...," as you state simply because of your return to active posting status and ongoing contributions after your hiatus? Or to what then? Would you kindly elaborate for us all, as to specifically how it is so?

Thank you VERY much for informing us that we can actually leave the site and "move on...," if we like!

I'd ridiculuously held the errant thought that we were forever trapped within this website!

Now, with considerable thanks to you, since I am aware that I may leave, I will naturally give this prospect serious consideration!

BTW, what's the latest news regarding the noteworthy plea for "help with stalker" you made in OMNI? No update in nearly five weeks now? So many questions were posed by those attempting to help, including myself, and yet no answers yet? Have you at last resolved this real and genuine concern? For the benefit of all, how?

http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...ML/006035.html

Thanks! Have a great weekend all!

-Mark

While I think that the subject of moderation is an very interesting and valuable topic to discuss, it is not the subject of this particular thread and I certainly don't want it to become a battleground for rehashing old misunderstandings. I love ya doc, but, could you start your own thread to discuss the moderation issues?

My goal in making this post was to seek clarification of the new Flyer Talk format which seems cumbersome and difficult for both new and seasoned posters to navigate and understand.

It is possible that there is a very logical explanation for the changes--band width problems, an attempt to spread out posts and information to increase revenue somehow, whatever. If we understood the rationale and the ultimate goal behind the changes, it would be easier for all of us to help achieve those goals. As it is people are just confused and frustrated and as a result some of the best contributors have simply drifted away.

There is such amazing brain power present here on FT that I am sure that if we understood the goals, we could contribute fabulous, innovative suggestions for format changes that could both achieve those goals and simultaneously result in an intuitive, welcoming atmosphere.

I has been many months now and it is readily apparent by the high percentage of misposts in Miles Buzz, and the lack of any substantial posts in some of the new areas, that the current format just isn't working as well as the old one did. Surely we can find a better solution.

Please accept my apologies, Punki!

We actually already have an aged one I'd started long ago:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum...ML/000040.html

And also another new one that TH just started here:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum95/HTML/002482.html

Have a great weekend all!

-Mark

Punqi, I don't know. There are just so many categories and topics nowadays that I don't think everyone will be happy all the time. Flyertalk.com is evolving, and I think we must all evolve with it.

FT isn't just about Miles and Points now. Plain and simple. Even though that was the cause for its' creation, it has moved beyond that.

What are the causes for "misposts"? I don't know... Careless error? Laziness? Lack of knowledge? Other reasons?

In terms of your thought about that "the current format just isn't working as well as the old one did," I will disagree. I think the changes that were made some 14 months ago have been a very proactive and positive way to grow. Personally I feel that the Travel Section has benefitted the most. Now people can ask questions about a trip to Shanghai in the Asia forum, about how to deal w/ two parents traveling w/ three children in Traveling with Children and GLBT topics� all now within the confines of FT Travel. These all would have just been lumped in what I believe was the �General Travel� forum prior to the overhaul in July 2001. Surely this is forward progress, no?

Now I�m not pointing fingers, so please don�t misinterpret the tone of this reply. But I think people are just too set in their ways and don�t realize that change is occurring. I do not see how this new system lacks intuition. My first supposition is that most people access FT through bookmarks to the Miles or Travel pages. If one was to start from the root of flyertalk.com they could very easily see the Miles, Tavel, Dining and Airport Forums with their appropriate descriptions.

I realize there will be some topics that could cross multiple forums, but I don�t think any system could eliminate that.

Penultimately, it is in my estimation that Randy is trying to create a very all-encompassing Travel Bulletin Board. As you say, almost all of the posters here are smarter than the average bear. Randy is trying to make sure that our combined knowledge is harnassed and accessed with topics that go beyond simple frequent flyer points and miles to paint the entire picture of traveling in this world today!

So I guess in conclusion, I just ask to know how the format is �cumbersome and difficult�� from personal experience. When did it become confusing to you and what were you trying to do? Maybe we can work though this all together!

As doc says, �Have a great weekend all�� I�m off to the Rodeo!

With this reply, I do not intend to speak for Randy, the staff at WebFlyer or the TalkBoard. The above are just the thoughts, ideas and ramblings of a 25 year old who, like most others here, cares about FlyerTalk.com

mike.

Punki,

The changes to FT are what, almost a year old?

They are by NO MEANS new.

Randy explained the reasons for doing so when he made the changes, and has repeated his reason since. You know that.

Why do you insist on asking the same questions over and over again? blairvanhorn links three other threads you have started on the same subject. It is quite clear you are unhappy with FT. It would also seem quite clear that Randy is happy with the state of FT.

Why not channel your energy into another board?

---

Members should not conscienciously and constructively express their opinion(s) on various policy matters and routinely work hard, as Punki has, to continually improve the website?

Is further improvement just not possible? Is FT "perfect?"

How did you ever come to this conclusion? Perhaps you can detail the methods you have employed?

Why should Punki go to another board again?

Sorry the "rationale" somehow escapes me!

Using this "logic" would a parent unhappy with some aspect of their childs behavior just abandon it and simply get another child?

BTW, is it really all that unusual for someone to post and ask somewhat repeatedly about something that concerns them here on FT?

Seems I know some folks that do/did!

Thanks! Have a great weekend all!

-Mark


[This message has been edited by doc (edited 09-13-2002).]

Thanks for your response Chex.

I most certainly do agree that the FT Travel forum has been enhanced and is a great place for special concern forums, i.e., Travel with Children, Online Booking and Bidding, Travel Technology, Women Travelers, Cruises, and GLBT. I believe that folks who are familiar with Flyer Talk will eventually find their way to these forums and find great value there.

Obviously many experienced posters who just want a fun place to relax, act silly and enjoy themselves seek out OMNI and really don't care where it is located. Travel Buzz also seems to enjoy good traffic from experienced posters.

Those issues are clear.

Let's for a moment, however, forget about everything we know about Flyer Talk and pretend that we are a true newbie who just happens to show up at www.flyertalk.com

Maybe they were surfing the net and found a link, read an article, went to a seminar, were referred by a friend, client, vendor, seatmate or newly met friend in an airport bar. Doesn't matter how they get here but the fact is that when they get here the first thing they see is "FT Miles".

Miles are what's happening. Miles are a national, no wait an international, addiction, so the newbie clicks on FT Miles.
Miles are what made FT happen and what keep it running.

The newbies proceed to check out the site and see lots of very interesting threads that have nothing on earth to do with miles, i.e., Community, Itineraries, Trip Reports, News, Coupon Connection, Talkboard Issues, and to tell the truth, a big percentage of the airline, hotel (why isn't the luxury hotel forum in hotels??), car, credit card, etc., do not relate to issues that relate to miles.

So then the newbie has a general question and is not sure where to post it so s/he posts it in Miles Buzz (which for years what the general topic forum, presumably because that was the intuitive place for it to be) and then WHAMO! the poor newbie gets flamed by the Post Nazis for posting in the wrong place. This is not a very effective way to welcome or encourage relative newbies. The relative newbies get discouraged and leave. If we really want Flyer Talk to continue to grow, we need to be very sensitive to the needs and concerns of the new poster.


Even worse, well at least just as bad, is the huge number of very valuable contributors (who at one time posted daily) who now only show up once every 6 months to a year. Why? Well some say they have left because of the mean-spirited aggressive (Post Nazi) behavior that has developed since the onset of "the right place".

FlyerTalk became the amazing place that it is because it was allowed to grow naturally, like a weed, to meet the needs of those who wandered by/in and invested their time, energy and money to make this a very, very special place.

Do we need structure as we grow? Of course. But that structure needs to be ligical, welcoming and above all needs to make intuitive sense to the new and old posters alike.

Yes I have asked the same questions over and over, exactly because I have never received a logical answer to these very simple questions.

On FT Miles the experiment of making Miles Buzz a "miles only" forum is an obvious failure--people just don't get the agenda. This is clearly witnessed by the fact that at any given time somewhere betwee 25% to 35% of posts on that forum get bounced out because they "don't fit".

How hard can this be? The people who first post on FT Miles need a General Travel forum on FT Miles or else FT Miles needs to be totally revamped to include absolutely nothing but miles posts. This would mean that all the most popular forums would have to be moved to FT Travel which would probably even more dramatically reduce the traffic and post by seasoned travelers.

So I am down once again to asking the heretofore unanswered question:

1. Is there some reason that FT Miles cannot support a General Travel forum?

2. Is there some reason that the General Travel forum cannot be at the top of FT Miles?

If the current system is broken (as evidenced by the huge number of locked and bounced posts on Miles Buzz) is there some specific resistance to trying to fix it?

To me it is blatantly obvious that FT Miles needs a general forum. What am I missing here?

I see little evidence of that. Now that the moderators are doing the job that Randy has asked them to do, off-topic posts are closed before anyone can complain.

I doubt very much if the lack of a General travel Talk is what has driven these people away. I know for a fact that a significant number of members have been driven into seclusion for other reasons.

It was answered, just because you did not like the answer, does not mean it was never answered.

Maybe it is a failure in your opinion, I AND many others beg to differ.

There IS a link to TravelBuzz at the top of the FT Miles page. It has been there for a while.

Randy has stated in the past that he wants FT Miles to be about miles.

It is.

Obvious to you, not so obvious to others.

IMO, FT is NOT broken in the least. Let's continue to keep the positive changes and not listen to a MINORITY that wants to go back to the "Good-Old Days".

Perhaps it's just me, but what I see here is a yearning for "days gone by". The simpler life of the "old flyertalk". But... to continue my cliche-fest.... "you can't go home again".

Flyertalk isn't the small, cozy, simplistic place it used to be. Some will always mourn for that, but I think most agree, that the tradeoffs for what we have now far outweigh the losses.

The changes are here. Period. Flyertalk is a much bigger ship (or plane) now, and while it may not be possible to maneuver like the little cessna it was, it's going to be able to meet the needs of far more people, and take them much further than before (and with premium cabins!)

I wholeheartedly agree with Chex's (25 yr old rambling) assessment of the situation.

I think the added forums are of great value to the board, and I don't believe that we can encourage the growth of those boards while at the same time allowing "weeds" to grow willy-nilly all over the place. I certainly don't encourage "flaming of newbies", but if we dont guide them in the right direction from the start, bad habits are more easily formed. Most of the redirection i've seen given given to newbies has been quite polite. If it hasnt, then maybe we as individual flyertalkers should take it upon ourselves to explain how things work, rather then just let them disappear, if that is what the concern is. I'm sure that the volumes of new information found when they WERE in fact given the correct forum far outweighs any confusion. And if someone is going to get their "feelings hurt" and leave rather than take advantage of and contribute to ALL the available resources, its really going to be their loss.

So to attempt to answer the specific questions posed:


1. Is there some reason that FT Miles cannot support a General Travel forum?

I'm sure it CAN, but since we have an entire section of FT dedicated to travel, as well as a link to Travelbuzz from the website, will just create another place for people to mispost and have to search through for information, causing (IMO) more confusion, than if they just searched TravelBuzz or the related travel forum.

2. Is there some reason that the General Travel forum cannot be at the top of FT Miles?

Because (again IMO)it will encourage misposting, rather than guide the "newbies" to the correct forum or section of FT, where they will be able to take advantage of all the great information that we have there.

Finally...

Perhaps the question is best asked to Randy in private, especially considering that even in original post on this thread it was suggested that he or his staff would be best equipped to answer the question. If a suitable explanation can't be found in the 9 pages of discussion we already have on this topic, then I think we can all agree its probably not going to happen.


Edited for late night spelling...ack!

[This message has been edited by missydarlin (edited 09-14-2002).]

My goal, Missy is not to return to the old FlyerTalk, but to find ways for the new FlyerTalk to work more smoothly and (if you will reread my posts) actually encourage growth.

The current design, combined with its apparent goal of keeping FTMiles restricted purely to mileage discussions, is illogical, causes confusion and IMHO that discourages both growth and continued participation.

For example:

If the purpose of FT Miles is strictly and exclusively to discuss miles and only miles, why are the Community, Intineraries, Trip Reports, News, Coupon Connection and Talkboard Issues located there?

Why are the Airline and Hotel disscussions located there? Surely the grand majority of discussions in those forums have nothing to do with miles.

The current design is cumbersome and illogical and it is that design which encourages mispostings.

Clearly if the top forum on FTMies were a General Forum, general questions placed there would not be "misposted" but would in fact be properly posted.

Clearly the existing plan of having a very restricted MilesBuzz at the top of the page isn't working. If it worked, the high percentage of "misposts" would not consistently occur.

As I have stated in a previous post, I too believe that many of the new special interest forms have added great value to to Flyer Talk. That is not at issue.

The real issue is that as long as FTMiles is called FTMiles and is the first choice on www.flyertalk.com it will always be the first forum people seek out and it will always be the most popular. That is a great thing because it adds to the overall growth of FlyerTalk--ours is a world filled with mileage junkies.

It is also inevitable that people who go to FTMiles will innocently ask general questions and that they will frequently post them in MilesBuzz or Community exactly because there is no other more appropriate forum provided within FTMiles. (Why isn't there?) Missy has suggested that they could search for a more appropriate forum in FTTravel and that is true, but I imagine that many of these folks simply don't realize that FTTravel or "search" exist.

Think about the way things are right now. If someone posts a question about "travel with children" into the Community forum, they are likely to receive a welcome to FlyerTalk, and a polite response along with the information that there is a special forum for travel with children and directions on how to find it--very friendly, personal and welcoming (that is part of what I envision happening in a General FTMiles forum). If, however, that same question is posted in MilesBuzz it is likely to receive a very terse and not very friendly comment from a self-appointed post Nazi to the effect that "This question is misposted" and then it will be moved by the moderator, causing less than friendly feelings all the way around.

What do we gain by this approach?

What would we lose by adding a General forum to FTMiles?




[This message has been edited by Punki (edited 09-14-2002).]