WTH is this? An "advice" forum? Travel for free forum?
May 19, 2013, 10:09 pm
#166
Moderator: Travel Buzz
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Sunny San Diego
Posts: 3,099
How about a tutorial "welcome" email/PM?
Some people hire a wedding planner or buy a package tour, although most of us here probably wouldn't take that approach.
People need to realize that there's a lot of specialized knowledge on FT. Folks know about the Hyatt program and Hyatt hotels, but those people tend to hang out in the Hyatt forum. The same for Marriott, etc. Others spend time in fora of the airlines they fly. Asking for information about a trip in one place almost guarantees few answers and answers from people without expertise in most of the questions.
Maybe this could be explained to newbies more clearly, in a user guide with tips for getting the most out of one's FT membership. However, experience here shows that few people read such materials beyond the basics of learning how to post something on FT, use the PM system, maybe post a signature or pictures. To me, it's common sense that when one first starts to explore a site like FT, one should try to figure out the organization into major areas and fora, the range of topics covered and where such information can be found. Yet I regularly see posts by people who seem oblivious to the idea that a site like FT needs to be organized and hence one shouldn't just post a question or comment anywhere. Sadly, no amount of "read this first" seems to have any effect.
People need to realize that there's a lot of specialized knowledge on FT. Folks know about the Hyatt program and Hyatt hotels, but those people tend to hang out in the Hyatt forum. The same for Marriott, etc. Others spend time in fora of the airlines they fly. Asking for information about a trip in one place almost guarantees few answers and answers from people without expertise in most of the questions.
Maybe this could be explained to newbies more clearly, in a user guide with tips for getting the most out of one's FT membership. However, experience here shows that few people read such materials beyond the basics of learning how to post something on FT, use the PM system, maybe post a signature or pictures. To me, it's common sense that when one first starts to explore a site like FT, one should try to figure out the organization into major areas and fora, the range of topics covered and where such information can be found. Yet I regularly see posts by people who seem oblivious to the idea that a site like FT needs to be organized and hence one shouldn't just post a question or comment anywhere. Sadly, no amount of "read this first" seems to have any effect.
I think these are very astute observations.
How about this-- what if every new sign up got a "welcome package" private message? It could be set up as an auto-email... you sign up, you get one. It could cover the basics-- where to find information on our various topics, a mini-manners primer, and some helpful tips.
As a relative newcomer myself, I dipped into the FT waters and right back out... it was too intimidating. Those long, long, long threads, the acronyms, etc. intimated me right out the door. But I did come back, sign up, and join. Within 5 or 10 minutes of joining, a very pushy person set me 2 emails asking me to use them for a SPG card sign up. I felt like I was swimming with the sharks.
May 20, 2013, 8:27 am
#167
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: SGF
Programs: AS, AA, UA, AGR S (former 75K, GLD, 1K, and S+, now an elite peon)
Posts: 23,194
I think these are very astute observations.
How about this-- what if every new sign up got a "welcome package" private message? It could be set up as an auto-email... you sign up, you get one. It could cover the basics-- where to find information on our various topics, a mini-manners primer, and some helpful tips.
As a relative newcomer myself, I dipped into the FT waters and right back out... it was too intimidating. Those long, long, long threads, the acronyms, etc. intimated me right out the door. But I did come back, sign up, and join. Within 5 or 10 minutes of joining, a very pushy person set me 2 emails asking me to use them for a SPG card sign up. I felt like I was swimming with the sharks.
How about this-- what if every new sign up got a "welcome package" private message? It could be set up as an auto-email... you sign up, you get one. It could cover the basics-- where to find information on our various topics, a mini-manners primer, and some helpful tips.
As a relative newcomer myself, I dipped into the FT waters and right back out... it was too intimidating. Those long, long, long threads, the acronyms, etc. intimated me right out the door. But I did come back, sign up, and join. Within 5 or 10 minutes of joining, a very pushy person set me 2 emails asking me to use them for a SPG card sign up. I felt like I was swimming with the sharks.
One thing to consider is that such a system would require some programming on the part of the board owners, which is something we should not assume will ever happen (and should be pleasantly shocked if it does--like we were with the wiki function). A newbie forum is something that can be created and implemented without any modification to the software.
I would like to pursue the latter idea, as it is a sure-fire thing, but then I would not mind submitting your idea to the forum owners (assuming the rest of the TalkBoard concurs) to see if they can implement it...and if they do, then we can all be pleasantly shocked together.
May 20, 2013, 8:58 am
#168
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: In CT,left my heart in Leicester.
Programs: Work in progress.
Posts: 1,237
Don't worry about that. I am convinced that we will get plenty of TalkBoard votes for any halfway reasonable proposal. It's just that jackal and I want to put forward the best proposal we can. More ideas are better, but in theory one person with a great idea is sufficient.
Also, there's nothing wrong about a newbie being an Ambassador. Putting together a few Wikis would be enough qualification IMHO.
Also, there's nothing wrong about a newbie being an Ambassador. Putting together a few Wikis would be enough qualification IMHO.
Take a look. I hope I got it right. I figured, a FAQ was the best to go about it.
IMHO an "award forum" isn't needed as the answers are already there in the hotel or airline FFP forums and all it takes is a little research to yield a veritable treasure trove of information. Practical advice on other matters can be sought and received in the destination forums. Goodness knows I asked many questions of the good posters on the ANA & Japan forums regarding a recent trip to NRT but they took my repeated queries with good grace and offered excellent responses and I appreciated that helpful input greatly.
MHO is often the trip is viewed as one large thing and answers sought based on that approach but that also makes offering answers that much more complex than if the various parts are considered individually. For example, instead of asking in a single thread about airline awards on several airlines with a myriad of routing possibilities with possible stopovers, best hotel programs and hotels in a destination, CC to earn miles on, etc. why not break each component out separately and examine the pros and cons of each on it's own and make decisions based on your own judgement of what works best for you? That's the way I do it though I get not everyone does things the same way. You don't plan a wedding all at once, you plan each item such as flowers, cake, etc. so why should travel be any different?
MHO is often the trip is viewed as one large thing and answers sought based on that approach but that also makes offering answers that much more complex than if the various parts are considered individually. For example, instead of asking in a single thread about airline awards on several airlines with a myriad of routing possibilities with possible stopovers, best hotel programs and hotels in a destination, CC to earn miles on, etc. why not break each component out separately and examine the pros and cons of each on it's own and make decisions based on your own judgement of what works best for you? That's the way I do it though I get not everyone does things the same way. You don't plan a wedding all at once, you plan each item such as flowers, cake, etc. so why should travel be any different?
A. How to best help newbies with their questions
and since a lot of their/our questions seem to be about award travel,
B. How do we go about helping them/us?
I still feel that the ambassadors/mentors idea that Jackal and I suggested would be the best way to take care of problem A.
Now with problem B...if we're creating mentors for every forum (people who'd be best suited to answer any/all questions regarding the topic of THAT forum) then maybe they could help with Award travel as well?
To be honest, I really feel that FT needs an award travel forum. After all, this forum is about travelling and not just credit cards and manufactured spending (which seems to be taking up the majority these days).
I'm sure there'd be plenty of people who'd be interested in helping out with this. There must be hundreds of people here who are as good as, if not better than the best award-booking service run by any blogger. So if some of these people are willing to help, why not enlist them?
BUT, we seem to be mixing two problems and I feel, if we try to solve both, we'll end up solving neither.
I think these are very astute observations.
How about this-- what if every new sign up got a "welcome package" private message? It could be set up as an auto-email... you sign up, you get one. It could cover the basics-- where to find information on our various topics, a mini-manners primer, and some helpful tips.
As a relative newcomer myself, I dipped into the FT waters and right back out... it was too intimidating. Those long, long, long threads, the acronyms, etc. intimated me right out the door. But I did come back, sign up, and join. Within 5 or 10 minutes of joining, a very pushy person set me 2 emails asking me to use them for a SPG card sign up. I felt like I was swimming with the sharks.
How about this-- what if every new sign up got a "welcome package" private message? It could be set up as an auto-email... you sign up, you get one. It could cover the basics-- where to find information on our various topics, a mini-manners primer, and some helpful tips.
As a relative newcomer myself, I dipped into the FT waters and right back out... it was too intimidating. Those long, long, long threads, the acronyms, etc. intimated me right out the door. But I did come back, sign up, and join. Within 5 or 10 minutes of joining, a very pushy person set me 2 emails asking me to use them for a SPG card sign up. I felt like I was swimming with the sharks.
Ignoring the programming side of it,the problem about a welcome package is that how many of the newbies would actually read it? Now I know that most of you will say that it's their fault if they don't but it's not that easy as just reading up. I can't give you my book of Gray's Anatomy to read and then expect to be a doctor.
My suggestion?
I think we would do well, to clean up these so called "Mega threads". It's way too confusing and way too intimidating for newbies to be confronted by a thread that has over 6000 posts and then being told "read back the last 10 pages".
You know how many pages I had to read back to create the WIKI for the CITI AA thread? I had to go back to February! We need to clear up these threads, and create mini-stickies that offer up to date information and other helpful links.
For example. How cool would it be to go to the Hyatt thread, find a sticky there that had links to the award categories. Links to sign up. Links to best hotels. Links to their customer support team. etc.
I think it would be a good idea to create a "Newbies-read this" sticky on the front page, and then inside it, link back to- List of mentors. List of aforementioned stickies or links to them.
I know I've not really explained that well, but my point is, we need to be able to get all the information and create order from the chaos, so that everything that needs to be found CAN be found, in a simple and orderly way.
May 20, 2013, 9:44 am
#169
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: SGF
Programs: AS, AA, UA, AGR S (former 75K, GLD, 1K, and S+, now an elite peon)
Posts: 23,194
I'm excited that someone like you was willing to go through and put some effort forth to help others digest the information easier. I hope that others feel the same desire and can go throughout the forums to do the same thing. Excellent work.
May 20, 2013, 10:03 am
#170
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: In CT,left my heart in Leicester.
Programs: Work in progress.
Posts: 1,237
I'm not knowledgeable about the subject matter, but the wikis themselves look excellent to me. Thanks for putting that out there to help others!
I'm excited that someone like you was willing to go through and put some effort forth to help others digest the information easier. I hope that others feel the same desire and can go throughout the forums to do the same thing. Excellent work.
I'm excited that someone like you was willing to go through and put some effort forth to help others digest the information easier. I hope that others feel the same desire and can go throughout the forums to do the same thing. Excellent work.
One is glad to be of service.
Created a mini wiki here as well.
Now to fix our other problems.
May 20, 2013, 11:28 am
#171
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: May 2002
Location: YEG
Programs: HH Silver
Posts: 56,449
Respectfully I don't as it would IMHO only create an unnecessary duplication of existing forums that could serve to confuse as much as clarify for all members, new & old alike. Sometimes less really is more though that is just MHO.
May 20, 2013, 11:50 am
#172
In Memoriam, FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Benicia CA
Programs: Alaska MVP Gold 75K, AA 3.8MM, UA 1.1MM, enjoying the retired life
Posts: 31,849
I don't see the need for an award forum. In the case of both the AA and One World forums, there are specific threads dedicated to award travel and various types of awards (AA, partner, One World Explorer) and those threads are quite active and work.
Would you propose moving these threads out of those forums, where they have high visibility and get posts almost every day, to a new master award forum? The risk there is that the members that currently post on the AA and One World forums and can be a font of knowledge might not follow those threads to a new home outside the AA/OW forums. Some segments of award travel are very difficult to sort out (things like maximum permitted mileage and backtracking). Putting those threads in a generic award travel forum risks that those with expertise on the topic might not follow the threads there.
Would you propose moving these threads out of those forums, where they have high visibility and get posts almost every day, to a new master award forum? The risk there is that the members that currently post on the AA and One World forums and can be a font of knowledge might not follow those threads to a new home outside the AA/OW forums. Some segments of award travel are very difficult to sort out (things like maximum permitted mileage and backtracking). Putting those threads in a generic award travel forum risks that those with expertise on the topic might not follow the threads there.
May 20, 2013, 11:51 am
#173
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: In CT,left my heart in Leicester.
Programs: Work in progress.
Posts: 1,237
I would be okay if a award forum wasn't created, because that never was my primary concern.
If we accomplished the first objective, then by default, all the award questions would be taken care of, making the goal of creating another forum redundant.
Though, reading back on what you've said so far, I have to agree, sometime less truly is more. ^
And there's only so much we can do before we end up running a kindergarten.
May 20, 2013, 11:55 am
#174
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: In CT,left my heart in Leicester.
Programs: Work in progress.
Posts: 1,237
I don't see the need for an award forum. In the case of both the AA and One World forums, there are specific threads dedicated to award travel and various types of awards (AA, partner, One World Explorer) and those threads are quite active and work.
Would you propose moving these threads out of those forums, where they have high visibility and get posts almost every day, to a new master award forum? The risk there is that the members that currently post on the AA and One World forums and can be a font of knowledge might not follow those threads to a new home outside the AA/OW forums. Some segments of award travel are very difficult to sort out (things like maximum permitted mileage and backtracking). Putting those threads in a generic award travel forum risks that those with expertise on the topic might not follow the threads there.
Would you propose moving these threads out of those forums, where they have high visibility and get posts almost every day, to a new master award forum? The risk there is that the members that currently post on the AA and One World forums and can be a font of knowledge might not follow those threads to a new home outside the AA/OW forums. Some segments of award travel are very difficult to sort out (things like maximum permitted mileage and backtracking). Putting those threads in a generic award travel forum risks that those with expertise on the topic might not follow the threads there.
But I still stand by the need to have a group of mentors. People who'd help and direct people along the way.
May 20, 2013, 11:59 am
#175
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Miami, Mpls & London
Programs: AA & Marriott Perpetual Platinum; DL & HH Gold
Posts: 48,955
This is what I wrote in post 16...
...and I still think it is the crux of the problem. FlyerTalk is organized by program, but in the USA (only) credit card bonuses have reversed the process. Americans can accumulate sufficient miles and points for a trip with literally no knowledge of the airline, hotel or credit card programs. Only when they seek to redeem these rewards do they realize that it can be complicated.
This will pass, we are already well past the peak credit card bonuses, but they won't disappear entirely and it could spread to other countries. FlyerTalk needs some process for helping people realize the value of the rewards they have accumulated. It could be a new member forum, or a very specific help me redeem my credit card rewards forum, or an automated tool which would direct members to the most likely airline or hotel forum based on their origin, destination and account balances, and help the member create an initial post using a fill in the blanks template.
Internet Brands also own an influential blog which could write a series of articles to address the most common redemption situations.
Credit card signup bonuses have changed the logic. It used to be that one chose an airline (or two) and looked for opportunities to earn miles in that program, including credit cards. Now, we have a wave of members for whom the process has been reversed - collect a series of unrelated card bonuses first, learn about the airlines, hotel chains and their programs later.
This will pass, we are already well past the peak credit card bonuses, but they won't disappear entirely and it could spread to other countries. FlyerTalk needs some process for helping people realize the value of the rewards they have accumulated. It could be a new member forum, or a very specific help me redeem my credit card rewards forum, or an automated tool which would direct members to the most likely airline or hotel forum based on their origin, destination and account balances, and help the member create an initial post using a fill in the blanks template.
Internet Brands also own an influential blog which could write a series of articles to address the most common redemption situations.
May 20, 2013, 12:54 pm
#176
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minneapolis: DL DM charter 2.3MM
Programs: A3*Gold, SPG Plat, HyattDiamond, MarriottPP, LHW exAccess, ICI, Raffles Amb, NW PE MM, TWA Gold MM
Posts: 100,413
Good idea. I like it.
One thing to consider is that such a system would require some programming on the part of the board owners, which is something we should not assume will ever happen (and should be pleasantly shocked if it does--like we were with the wiki function). A newbie forum is something that can be created and implemented without any modification to the software.
I would like to pursue the latter idea, as it is a sure-fire thing, but then I would not mind submitting your idea to the forum owners (assuming the rest of the TalkBoard concurs) to see if they can implement it...and if they do, then we can all be pleasantly shocked together.
One thing to consider is that such a system would require some programming on the part of the board owners, which is something we should not assume will ever happen (and should be pleasantly shocked if it does--like we were with the wiki function). A newbie forum is something that can be created and implemented without any modification to the software.
I would like to pursue the latter idea, as it is a sure-fire thing, but then I would not mind submitting your idea to the forum owners (assuming the rest of the TalkBoard concurs) to see if they can implement it...and if they do, then we can all be pleasantly shocked together.
Does this make sense or do I misunderstand something here about your programming concerns?
May 20, 2013, 1:11 pm
#177
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: SGF
Programs: AS, AA, UA, AGR S (former 75K, GLD, 1K, and S+, now an elite peon)
Posts: 23,194
Are you talking about programming to send the new member welcome email? IIRC when one registers on FT, you must wait to receive an email to be able to initialize your account and log in. That email text could be modified and expanded to have the new welcome material, perhaps with links or attachments (if the current programming allows the addition of attachments to the automated email).
Does this make sense or do I misunderstand something here about your programming concerns?
Does this make sense or do I misunderstand something here about your programming concerns?
Some things to program may be more difficult than others, but I wouldn't count on it being easy until and unless we are told otherwise.
That's why I advocate going for both the instantly-implementable solution as well as one that requires additional configuration. That way, we can definitely get at least one helpful solution in place now.
May 20, 2013, 1:45 pm
#178
In Memoriam, FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Benicia CA
Programs: Alaska MVP Gold 75K, AA 3.8MM, UA 1.1MM, enjoying the retired life
Posts: 31,849
FlyerTalk needs some process for helping people realize the value of the rewards they have accumulated. It could be a new member forum, or a very specific help me redeem my credit card rewards forum, or an automated tool which would direct members to the most likely airline or hotel forum based on their origin, destination and account balances, and help the member create an initial post using a fill in the blanks template.
Why not start with something that works well in a number of forums: a newbie thread? No reason you can't create one of those right now in the both the Miles Buzz and Credit Card forums. They've been quite successful in the AA and Hyatt forums, but it's up to the specific forum moderators to allow such a thread.
On AA:
Smile [2013 NEWBIE LOUNGE] Ask Your AA-Related Questions Here (flame free)
On Hyatt:
[NEWBIE LOUNGE] Ask Your Questions Here (flame free)
As these are "flame-free" threads, the sniping about checking blogs or doing a search are not allowed. You can implement this feature today. Give it a few weeks and see if it works. If you find it's not working well on your forum, shut it down.
May 20, 2013, 2:38 pm
#179
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Miami, Mpls & London
Programs: AA & Marriott Perpetual Platinum; DL & HH Gold
Posts: 48,955
May 20, 2013, 2:41 pm
#180
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN Companion Pass, A-list preferred, Hyatt Globalist; United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 21,624
mia, what about having an open thread, so that everyone can update its Wiki? Yes, the posts will ramble, but the focus of the thread will be the Wiki. Ideally the posts will only flag readers as to what part of the Wiki post at the top has just been updated.