WTH is this? An "advice" forum? Travel for free forum?
Apr 27, 2013, 8:40 pm
#91
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: ORF
Programs: Amex Plat, AA, BA Silver, Marriott Plat, Choice Gold, HHonors Gold, IHG Diamond
Posts: 3,749
Paul,
Agree that the 70% is an overstatement. However, how can you explain people asking about who offers one way trips, or asking what "blackout dates" are? They are obviously people who do not feel that they need to do any investigation and are therefore "entitled" to have someone explain the terms to them. All it would take is a little investigation on the person's part to find the answers. Would you ask what a "blackout" date is, or would you do a little investigation yourself???? I am sure you would do the investigation.
Agree that the 70% is an overstatement. However, how can you explain people asking about who offers one way trips, or asking what "blackout dates" are? They are obviously people who do not feel that they need to do any investigation and are therefore "entitled" to have someone explain the terms to them. All it would take is a little investigation on the person's part to find the answers. Would you ask what a "blackout" date is, or would you do a little investigation yourself???? I am sure you would do the investigation.
I'll concede the analogy doesn't apply 100% (although it's more than the 70% previously cited), but the truth is, a lot of folks come to FT with questions who don't have a clue about the things we're talking about here. You know why they came here? Because they think we know what we're talking about--just like my clients did when I was in private practice.
And, there's no doubt, every member of FT knows more the longer here than the first day visited. Should that make a member who has been here awhile who asks a question that's actually fairly obvious to those with extensive experience in a particular area "entitled" in the eyes of those who have a lot more knowledge?
I'm with PaulMSN on this. Where, as a community, do we gain by blasting newbies to the board who ask these questions? And, what exactly do we, as veterans of the community who know there's a second page to MilesBuzz or that there are credit card boards where questions about certain products might be better asked or airline forums where we might research questions, lose?
Thougtful answers to these newbie questions by other members have frequently provided me insight about an airline/hotel program or redemption strategy that I'd never considered before.
I'm not saying that we wouldn't benefit from a detailed thread or a separate forum or better direction for these questions. But, just as the tone of this thread was set by the OP's title, I don't get the sense that the resentment from some will disappear if those "enhancements" are implemented.
Apr 27, 2013, 8:57 pm
#92
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Intermountain West
Programs: Too many to list
Posts: 12,066
Agree. I think the only thing that will help those who put in no effort is to just not reply to the request. If it sounds like the requester has done some homework I'm more than happy to suggest a solution.
Apr 27, 2013, 9:29 pm
#93
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Chicago
Programs: UA, AA, US, DL, PC Plat, Dollar, Avis, National, SPG, HH Gold, CC Gold
Posts: 1,212
I spent over a decade in law practice. I never had a client who came in armed with a bunch of knowledge. And, I can guarantee you, clients wouldn't have been happy had I simply said, "Do a Google search."
I'll concede the analogy doesn't apply 100% (although it's more than the 70% previously cited), but the truth is, a lot of folks come to FT with questions who don't have a clue about the things we're talking about here. You know why they came here? Because they think we know what we're talking about--just like my clients did when I was in private practice.
And, there's no doubt, every member of FT knows more the longer here than the first day visited. Should that make a member who has been here awhile who asks a question that's actually fairly obvious to those with extensive experience in a particular area "entitled" in the eyes of those who have a lot more knowledge?
I'm with PaulMSN on this. Where, as a community, do we gain by blasting newbies to the board who ask these questions? And, what exactly do we, as veterans of the community who know there's a second page to MilesBuzz or that there are credit card boards where questions about certain products might be better asked or airline forums where we might research questions, lose?
Thougtful answers to these newbie questions by other members have frequently provided me insight about an airline/hotel program or redemption strategy that I'd never considered before.
I'm not saying that we wouldn't benefit from a detailed thread or a separate forum or better direction for these questions. But, just as the tone of this thread was set by the OP's title, I don't get the sense that the resentment from some will disappear if those "enhancements" are implemented.
I'll concede the analogy doesn't apply 100% (although it's more than the 70% previously cited), but the truth is, a lot of folks come to FT with questions who don't have a clue about the things we're talking about here. You know why they came here? Because they think we know what we're talking about--just like my clients did when I was in private practice.
And, there's no doubt, every member of FT knows more the longer here than the first day visited. Should that make a member who has been here awhile who asks a question that's actually fairly obvious to those with extensive experience in a particular area "entitled" in the eyes of those who have a lot more knowledge?
I'm with PaulMSN on this. Where, as a community, do we gain by blasting newbies to the board who ask these questions? And, what exactly do we, as veterans of the community who know there's a second page to MilesBuzz or that there are credit card boards where questions about certain products might be better asked or airline forums where we might research questions, lose?
Thougtful answers to these newbie questions by other members have frequently provided me insight about an airline/hotel program or redemption strategy that I'd never considered before.
I'm not saying that we wouldn't benefit from a detailed thread or a separate forum or better direction for these questions. But, just as the tone of this thread was set by the OP's title, I don't get the sense that the resentment from some will disappear if those "enhancements" are implemented.
In this case, people want free services for which they are NOT paying. They want to use someone else's expertise in order to make life easier for themselves with no reciprocation.
Not the same thing.
We are not necessarily blasting people. When a child asks a question, we as adults often respond with "Go look it up". It is essentially the same situation. We are teaching people how to find the answer themselves instead of just handing them the answers.
Apr 27, 2013, 11:00 pm
#94
Join Date: May 2003
Location: CA
Programs: AA Lifetime Gold, HHonors Diamond
Posts: 2,879
But what if the client came to you and said "Here are all my questions......Please give me the answer to all of them - for free". Would you willingly spend your time doing research for the person and not expect to be able to bill for your time. If you are willing to do that, I would love to set up a full day appointment with you so you could give me a lot of free legal advise.
Apr 28, 2013, 12:31 am
#95
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Madison, WI, USA
Posts: 14,162
It is my experience that when questions are answered nicely, the neophyte is both grateful and eager to make his or her own contribution.
Apr 28, 2013, 12:44 am
#96
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Madison, WI, USA
Posts: 14,162
Paul,
Agree that the 70% is an overstatement. However, how can you explain people asking about who offers one way trips, or asking what "blackout dates" are? They are obviously people who do not feel that they need to do any investigation and are therefore "entitled" to have someone explain the terms to them. All it would take is a little investigation on the person's part to find the answers. Would you ask what a "blackout" date is, or would you do a little investigation yourself???? I am sure you would do the investigation.
Agree that the 70% is an overstatement. However, how can you explain people asking about who offers one way trips, or asking what "blackout dates" are? They are obviously people who do not feel that they need to do any investigation and are therefore "entitled" to have someone explain the terms to them. All it would take is a little investigation on the person's part to find the answers. Would you ask what a "blackout" date is, or would you do a little investigation yourself???? I am sure you would do the investigation.
If I run into you on the street and ask you the time, are you going to ream me out as a lazy good-for-nothing who should go find a clock and check for myself?
Yes, most things can be found out by investigation, but it's not a crime to ask someone who knows. It's ridiculous to feel that everyone should re-invent the wheel just so you're sure they're not slacking off.
Apr 28, 2013, 2:26 am
#97
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: New York, NY
Programs: The Golden status boy
Posts: 854
I'm confused. Which forum on the board reserves FT knowledge as a premium service for a fee? It's not as if people are coming here with "I earned 500 extra SPG points by declining housekeeping, how will this translate into J class on CX and a penthouse suite?" We all started somewhere.
I, for one, would like the ability to check my work from time to time. I feel that I have a very advanced grasp as to how "the game" works and have advised others IRL because getting a steal is my passion and the way that I can afford to expand my life experiences through travel. If you have contempt for my question, I really don't care. Ignore it. Move to the next thread. More often than not, someone will post a useful reply showing a different perspective on things. That can be the difference between burning Amex MR points on a gift card and getting a few domestic flights for free.
The problem, as MIA correctly pointed out, is that no one with a good grasp on things will visit a board setup for the newbies. I know that I wouldn't because a simple comment can turn into a long PM of explaining how things work. Newbies helping newbies kind of defeats the purpose of a new thread to begin with.
I, for one, would like the ability to check my work from time to time. I feel that I have a very advanced grasp as to how "the game" works and have advised others IRL because getting a steal is my passion and the way that I can afford to expand my life experiences through travel. If you have contempt for my question, I really don't care. Ignore it. Move to the next thread. More often than not, someone will post a useful reply showing a different perspective on things. That can be the difference between burning Amex MR points on a gift card and getting a few domestic flights for free.
The problem, as MIA correctly pointed out, is that no one with a good grasp on things will visit a board setup for the newbies. I know that I wouldn't because a simple comment can turn into a long PM of explaining how things work. Newbies helping newbies kind of defeats the purpose of a new thread to begin with.
Apr 28, 2013, 8:19 am
#98
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: ORF
Programs: Amex Plat, AA, BA Silver, Marriott Plat, Choice Gold, HHonors Gold, IHG Diamond
Posts: 3,749
Sorry I don't agree with your analogy of practicing law. When a client enters your office, they are paying you for your expertise. You are offering a service for a fee. This is your business.
In this case, people want free services for which they are NOT paying. They want to use someone else's expertise in order to make life easier for themselves with no reciprocation.
Not the same thing.
We are not necessarily blasting people. When a child asks a question, we as adults often respond with "Go look it up". It is essentially the same situation. We are teaching people how to find the answer themselves instead of just handing them the answers.
In this case, people want free services for which they are NOT paying. They want to use someone else's expertise in order to make life easier for themselves with no reciprocation.
Not the same thing.
We are not necessarily blasting people. When a child asks a question, we as adults often respond with "Go look it up". It is essentially the same situation. We are teaching people how to find the answer themselves instead of just handing them the answers.
Reciprocation does not necessarily occur in the same exchange. You don't know what expertise a person brings to the table when they ask a question here. The question you answer for them today may (or may not) result in that person providing an answer to your question in the future. That's the nature of an internet board. In addition, a reasoned response can not only provide an answer to the immediate question but also demonstrate how you can find answers to questions in the future.
Apr 28, 2013, 8:29 am
#99
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: ORF
Programs: Amex Plat, AA, BA Silver, Marriott Plat, Choice Gold, HHonors Gold, IHG Diamond
Posts: 3,749
But what if the client came to you and said "Here are all my questions......Please give me the answer to all of them - for free". Would you willingly spend your time doing research for the person and not expect to be able to bill for your time. If you are willing to do that, I would love to set up a full day appointment with you so you could give me a lot of free legal advise.
I agree that some folks post with questions with multiple parts but rarely are there more than five or six separate questions in a post. Do you spend all day answering these questions? Do you even spend five minutes answering them? And wouldn't it just be a lot easier to ignore those questions?
Apr 28, 2013, 8:49 am
#100
Moderator: Travel Buzz
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Sunny San Diego
Posts: 3,095
I'm not convinced that a separate forum would have the effect of segregating newcomers from every one else. It's not necessarily putting in a kindergarten playground while the big kids are in the gym.
I see it more as a way to consolidate information to make it easier to find... SFO to Berlin using AA miles isn't all that different from LAX to Dusseldorf. I would hope that a newcomer might review the threads in such a forum and find some answers. It took me a while to read Flyertalk before I started to assimilate the jargon. I was not lazy or stupid, just somewhat overwhelmed by the array of data.
How many times in the US Air card thread do we get to share the revelation of figuring out What's a benie?
I see it more as a way to consolidate information to make it easier to find... SFO to Berlin using AA miles isn't all that different from LAX to Dusseldorf. I would hope that a newcomer might review the threads in such a forum and find some answers. It took me a while to read Flyertalk before I started to assimilate the jargon. I was not lazy or stupid, just somewhat overwhelmed by the array of data.
How many times in the US Air card thread do we get to share the revelation of figuring out What's a benie?
Apr 28, 2013, 8:53 am
#101
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Denver CO
Posts: 3,682
For the $300 an hour many good lawyers charge, I'd probably be happy to field questions on award bookings. But that's not the issue and the analogy isn't just imperfect, rather it is inapplicable.
Anyone wanting to book an award can learn how to do so through the resources readily available on FT and elsewhere. I often suggest the Mile Value blog, which is a virtual tutorial on getting awards on each of the three major alliances. Two or three hours of serious study over there would enable just about anyone in the basics of award booking. Since the awards we're talking about have a value in most cases of several thousand dollars, that's an hourly rate that even a lawyer would be proud of.
If folks don't want to spend a couple of hours to gain a few thousand dollars of benefit, they can pay an award service a few hundred dollars to do it for them-still a good deal.
The benefit in pointing folks in one of the above two directions is that some will actually go learn about award bookings and perhaps return to FT and share their knowledge on advanced matters, contributing to the common good. A FT version of pro bono work in a way.
Anyone wanting to book an award can learn how to do so through the resources readily available on FT and elsewhere. I often suggest the Mile Value blog, which is a virtual tutorial on getting awards on each of the three major alliances. Two or three hours of serious study over there would enable just about anyone in the basics of award booking. Since the awards we're talking about have a value in most cases of several thousand dollars, that's an hourly rate that even a lawyer would be proud of.
If folks don't want to spend a couple of hours to gain a few thousand dollars of benefit, they can pay an award service a few hundred dollars to do it for them-still a good deal.
The benefit in pointing folks in one of the above two directions is that some will actually go learn about award bookings and perhaps return to FT and share their knowledge on advanced matters, contributing to the common good. A FT version of pro bono work in a way.
Apr 28, 2013, 10:09 am
#102
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 784
I am newer and am in absolutely no way an expert on anything here. I generally have a "successful" award booking by using miles and getting where I want to go, so by the standards espoused here, I am am a failure. However, when I came here, I realized in ten minutes the depth of the knowledge here. I spent a couple of days poking around, it was fun and in the process, I managed to figure out that there was a search button. I'll admit part of the reason was I really didn't want to be one of those newbies that kept getting barked at. I wanted to be able to stay rather than getting my routing and returning in a couple of years to ask my next basic question! In other words the hazing, barking, crankiness actually forced me to look for things before asking and Ive never started my own thread that was a question. Yet, Ive still managed to collect some miles and use them. I figure as I learn more, I may get more rewards for my efforts, but in the meantime, Im not shut out of the game by any stretch-- neither are the newbies that did not get first class tickets. I also try to help when I can, although I typically want to see someone do something other than join and post, i.e. look for something.
At the same time, Ive watched the veterans leave. It's not just the knowledge base leaving folks, it's the fun. I came here to learn, but I stayed for the fun. These threads are not fun and are driving the fun people away with frustration. As a result, I am being shut out of what FT appears to have been about-- a place to help when you needed it, not when you couldn't be bothered to do something and a few jokes in the middle of my work day.
At the same time, Ive watched the veterans leave. It's not just the knowledge base leaving folks, it's the fun. I came here to learn, but I stayed for the fun. These threads are not fun and are driving the fun people away with frustration. As a result, I am being shut out of what FT appears to have been about-- a place to help when you needed it, not when you couldn't be bothered to do something and a few jokes in the middle of my work day.
Apr 28, 2013, 10:38 am
#103
Join Date: May 2003
Location: CA
Programs: AA Lifetime Gold, HHonors Diamond
Posts: 2,879
I think the frustration you are seeing here is not when a new person asks an "in depth" question. The frustration comes, at least for me, when someone asks a VERY basic question. Questions like "What is a blackout date" should be researched. Just doing a Google search will answer that one in a couple of seconds.....not rocket science. The question of "How much are change fees", can be determined by the person doing a quick search on the specific airlines web page (or a Google would probably take you directly to the appropriate airlines web page).
People who ask these types of questions are the ones that want all the information spoon fed to them - and I find that very frustrating. If all these "I need to book" threads were in one place it would help many people find the answers they need.
People who ask these types of questions are the ones that want all the information spoon fed to them - and I find that very frustrating. If all these "I need to book" threads were in one place it would help many people find the answers they need.
Apr 28, 2013, 11:52 am
#104
Join Date: Apr 2013
Programs: UA MPE, BA Blue, AA, IHG Plat Amb, Marriot Silver, HHonors Silver, National Exec, Avis First
Posts: 553
I think the frustration you are seeing here is not when a new person asks an "in depth" question. The frustration comes, at least for me, when someone asks a VERY basic question. Questions like "What is a blackout date" should be researched. Just doing a Google search will answer that one in a couple of seconds.....not rocket science. The question of "How much are change fees", can be determined by the person doing a quick search on the specific airlines web page (or a Google would probably take you directly to the appropriate airlines web page).
People who ask these types of questions are the ones that want all the information spoon fed to them - and I find that very frustrating. If all these "I need to book" threads were in one place it would help many people find the answers they need.
People who ask these types of questions are the ones that want all the information spoon fed to them - and I find that very frustrating. If all these "I need to book" threads were in one place it would help many people find the answers they need.
However, I fail to understand the seemingly uncontrollable desire to type out (in detail) a lengthy response to vent the frustration,
vs
resisting the urge and spending the extra nano-second to scroll on by that thread.
I am so grateful for this thread and all of the awesome responses. I originally thought that this new sub-forum was an OK idea, but I would definitely like to recant now! Now that I've been around FT for awhile and have seen how HUGE this site is, I am amazed by the wealth of info and experience here. It still is pretty overwhelming! The best part for me is when I read a post by an experienced FT'er and I can FEEL the caring thoughtfulness and helpfulness in their words. It would be a shame for that to diminish or disappear... ^
Apr 28, 2013, 1:50 pm
#105
Join Date: May 2008
Location: BOS/SIN
Programs: SQ
Posts: 2,704
I have noticed that recently newbies have been giving newbies advice because veterans don't want to waste their time. This has led to some average advice being given.
I don't mind giving advice when I'm bored sitting in some awful Chinese airport lounge, but I like others would need to set up a booking service to do this all the time.
People do need help, although I agree that everything is available here on FT. Many of us are as good as or better than the booking services others recommend and often help for free. Honestly speaking, the booking services really only know *a and OW well and those are so simple to figure out.
It's a complicated situation but is a potential business opportunity for many of us as well.
I don't mind giving advice when I'm bored sitting in some awful Chinese airport lounge, but I like others would need to set up a booking service to do this all the time.
People do need help, although I agree that everything is available here on FT. Many of us are as good as or better than the booking services others recommend and often help for free. Honestly speaking, the booking services really only know *a and OW well and those are so simple to figure out.
It's a complicated situation but is a potential business opportunity for many of us as well.
