kokonutz

FWIW, I have never said that FTers should not attempt to run commercial enterprises through FlyerTalk or to or promote commercial enterprises to FlyerTalkers either for profit or out of altruism or any combination of the two. I have simply pointed out that doing so is currently against the TOS:

So if it is going to be done the TOS needs to be amended to accommodate it.

Or a better definition of "commercial products or services" needs to be made.

Or, and this is what I think is the best idea: a commercial FTer services forum should be set up where FTers can hawk their commercial FF wares to other FTers. @:-)

gleff

That's all stuff that the TalkBoard can consider if it so desires, of course. But the events you have a problem with (for too much emphasis on miles and points content and not enough sex) would still belong in the community forum and not that new forum because they are not commercial.

kokonutz

I'm not concerned about the emphasis on sex or food or points and miles or drinks. I'm concerned about the 'product.' To me a commercial venture is when a product is being offered for sale. In the case of the seminars, it feels to me like speakers and information are being sold. Its not 'come share conversation,' it's 'come buy information.' The fact that you speak the information that is for sale rather than provide a bound volume that contains the information is irrelevant. The value proposition seems to be: cash for information being imparted.

Clearly you don't think that way.

So...answer the question posed in the title of the thread: When DOES a 'Do' become a commercial venture?

gleff

You keep calling me a product. But I rapid fire frequent flyer stuff whether I'm in front of an audience or droning on over dinner. You'd find me equally insufferable if we were just having a meal.

You've posed a whole lot of hypotheticals about how things could become commercial because of future actions that could be taken, hypothesizing a profitable market that could be identified. And that's all well and good, if someone wants to take up that challenge and build a business that's fine. And it's fine for folks to think about how the TOS would deal with that. Just as it would be fine to ask whether "Hire a Flyertalker" threads fit into the TOS, or discussions of ExpertFlyer (especially if participated in by a representative of that business) or even for that matter discussions of Starwood Preferred Guest with Starwood's corproate involvement.

Me, I'm not that worried about it. It troubles you. I get that. So wondering if the following things might help?

* If the cost to participate in an event covers only meals, activities, and venue. ... then it's probably not a commercial event.

* If the cost to participate in an event is LESS THAN the cost of meals, activtiies and venue. ... then it's probably not a commercial event.

* If the organizers of the event are not paying themselves a penny to organize it. ... then it's probably not a commercial event.

* If the event itself does not make a profit, after factoring in office supplies (name tags, poster board, tape etc) ... then it's probably not a commercial event.

* If the whole thing is a volunteer effort ... then it's probably not a commercial event.

* If it's being put together by long-time members of a community who tell you it's not a commercial event (you have enough respect for them to believe they're being straight with you) ... then it's probably not a commercial event.

Dude, not everyone is lying to you.

Respect your fellow members of the community who are putting their sweat and tears into organizing events that other members of the community seem to value.

Instead of wrroying so much that someone, somewhere might make money off of an event, accept what folks are telling you at face value when they've built reputations and given to the community in the past.

It's perfectly fine that these DOs are not your cup of tea. You don't have to attend. But just because an event is diffrent than the PiP or any number of other times you've gotten together with someone for a beer, doesn't mean it's not a DO. Communities evolve and the way that members of communities volunterily decide to get together evolves.

Oh, and how about this? When folks putting together a DO tell you that they're coming out cash negative, coming out of pocket, using thier own miles to fly other people to the event, and continue answering an insufferable amoutn of questions despite incessant attacks on their integrity, eventually, maybe, just take a deep breath and believe for one moment that there isn't an ulterior motive. They're doing it because they enjoy it, they're not getting rich off of it, they're just trying to give something to the community because they want to do so, they enjoy doing so... and sure, maybe it even feels good when other members of the community thank them for doing so, or they like to tell themselves that they're the kind of person who does do something for other frequent flyers.

But I am not a product. I am a person. And I am not making money off of any of these events. As I said, I am not only cash negative on the upcoming Frequent Traveler Univeristy, I am miles negative on it too.

I keep answering here when I probably shouldn't, it's just that I shake my head wondering what I've ever done to so offend? Seriously, I don't need to do this. When it ceases being fun I should probably stop. And all of the impugning of motives makes it really, really un-fun.

Canarsie

I completely agree and have supported that idea for years.

In fact — to a certain extent — milepoint.com already has a forum called ConcourseZ dedicated to commercial services, though limited in nature.

Admittedly, however, one potential problem in which I do see with this idea is how should those offering commercial products and services be vetted so as members of FlyerTalk can have reasonable confidence and trust in what is offered? Should this potential forum be similar to the OMNI and Coupon Connection forums in which there is a minimum time and content requirement? Should requests be formally approved by a governing body, similar to ConcourseZ on milepoint.com?

Perhaps a new thread should be launched in this forum so as not for us to further derail this discussion off-topic?

kokonutz

That's a good idea...I wonder if TB members are even following this discussion anymore!

If you start one, I'll certainly endorse it...not sure it would advance the cause for me to start yet another thread in this forum!

gleff

Oh I dunno, you'd at least have the advantage of it being oen that I'm not subscribed to...

I admit I only came by this one when someone sent me an email and asked me to comment (note: not anyone involved with any of the events you're beefin' with ).

There are clear advantages to that...

dhammer53

Everything is figured in to the price of the BRT. If the hats cost $8.00 x 50 hats, that's $400. Add to that the shipping. I add the bus fee + driver tip + lunch for the driver (which I picked up for previously). I also add the certified check fee that I have to send to the bus company. No points for me, except for the deposit that I give them on my credit card.

Last year at the bakery, the owner asked me if I wanted anything (for bringing in a busload of people?) You of course know my answer. That box was passed around before its contents disappeared.

In the early years of the tour, where I rented a van, I underestimated the cost of the gas, and totally forgot about the tolls. These days, that's not an issue.

Last year there was a couple of bucks left over prior to the tour. mjm and I headed to the good bakery in Brooklyn (closed on Saturday) and 'spent' the extra money on bakery goodies that were passed around on the bus at 10:00am. Nothing like feeding the hungry bears.

How did I have extra money you ask? We had a full bus for a change. I have to guestimate how many people are coming and figure the cost accordingly. I was able to refund the money of one or 2 that couldn't attend due to the full bus. That was a first, because once you pay, that's it.

Organizing these DOs takes a lot of time and planning. It's a labor of love.

jackal

You'll see at least two TalkBoard members who posted not far above...

SkiAdcock

Well said.

Cheers.

jackal

And a third just above this.

Spiff

I'm still following this discussion. I'm still as to why this is still an issue. However, I'm reading the discussion.

An excellent post, not that it should have come to the need for such a post.

sbm12

As gleff notes it is not my concession to make as I am no longer involved with that organization, but that was the premise I operated under throughout my time there. We were non-profit but definitely commercial in our undertakings. Maybe my misunderstanding of the organization's goals is part of why I resigned my position with them; who knows. I certainly wasn't the boss of the organization so my views should not be construed as representing them; it was simply what I thought we were doing at the time.

I am quite familiar with the AI thing and, again as gleff notes, I do not see that overlap as an issue at all. Unless a lot of industry insiders are now reading FT to figure out where the appropriate industry conferences are being held there seems to be no conflict there IMO.

This is, I agree, where things start to blur. When you have a 6 figure budget there is always going to be room for a couple bucks here and there to become "event supplies" that maybe shouldn't be. If I get a new iPad as part of my volunteer work (n.b. I never have for any of the events I've participated in the organization of) does that make it a commercial venture? Probably not IMO, but it does start to raise more questions.


I tend to agree and, quite frankly, while I was involved this was my goal for the organization. Again, I'm no longer involved so I cannot speak to what their intentions are, but I believed that was part of where we were headed while I was there.

That said, I do not believe that having those events discussed on FlyerTalk is wrong. Not a single bit at all. I believe that the current "Commercial posts" ToS rule is horribly naive, outdated and misguided for the community that we have today. Certainly there are many other commercial ventures that are welcomed within our community and generally speaking they are beneficial to the community, even if someone profits personally from them. They are not walled off, specially flagged or otherwise identified. They just are.

At the end of the day what I believe is more important than commercial or not is whether the members are participating in the community or not. Whether they are providing value through their presence or just trying to leech money out of the community. It turns out that identifying which ventures fall into those two categories is actually pretty simple in most cases.

Commercial or not, the events organized by the FTEF or the Chicago Do or all the others that I've seen survive here on FT as threads absolutely represent events that are providing value into the community and organized by members that provide value into the community more than they take out of it.

At the end of the day that's all that matters IMO.

kokonutz

See the post after yours for your answer. @:-)



sbm12, thank you for sharing your frank assessment. I knew I was not being a paranoid conspiracy kook, but it's still a relief when someone goes on the record confirming my relatively good grasp of what's going on...if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

I'm not so sure it's always as clear cut as you think to determine when commercial product providers are providing value through their presence or just trying to leech money out of the community. In most cases, the answer is both. I'm a very satisfied KVS customer, for example. I have benefited immensely from it. But I am under no illusion about KVS being anything but a commercial product (nor, IME, does he pretend not to be). Why is it free to post wherever it wants on FT? I have no idea, given the TOS.

But one point is clear: the TOS is outdated in terms of this issue. One way or another, something should be done. And imho, Canarsie's idea/thread is at least a good place to start.

SkiAdcock

There is a thread in Community Buzz re: the topic with specific questions.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/commu...-type-dos.html

Cheers.