Tipping for upgrades? My experience.
Nov 20, 2013, 5:02 pm
#46
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Houston, TX
Programs: United Gold, Bonvoy Titanium
Posts: 207
I didn't mind the long post it told the whole story. Sure there were superfluous details, but we're on page 3 of this thread aren't we...
Further, I've never done something like this, but as a lowly SPG+ member, I'd be more akin to try it and wonder what would happen. I wouldn't consider it stealing, but I can understand how this would be frowned upon by Starwood..
Further, I've never done something like this, but as a lowly SPG+ member, I'd be more akin to try it and wonder what would happen. I wouldn't consider it stealing, but I can understand how this would be frowned upon by Starwood..
Nov 20, 2013, 5:13 pm
#47
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: From: PWM
Programs: United GS, Fairmont Platinum,SPG LTPlat, Hilton Diamond, MarriottGold..like the rest of the world
Posts: 4,401
Care to explain why not?
The front desk agent doesn't own the hotel. A group of investors does. This group utilizes yield management software from both Starwood and their own sources to carefully plan in such a way that will maximize their long term profitability. The "system" has rules and guidelines in place for generally very solid reasons.
When a front desk agent circumvents this process as a result of a payoff, it's hard not to see this as stealing.
Or, consider this: if you were the hotel owner and learned that your front line hourly employees were assigning suite upgrades after cash payments were received, how do you think you'd view this sort of behavior?
How about if you owned a restaurant and the waitstaff was comping desserts or drinks for guests who tipped them up front?
To me, it's incredibly simple. There is no grey area here.
The front desk agent doesn't own the hotel. A group of investors does. This group utilizes yield management software from both Starwood and their own sources to carefully plan in such a way that will maximize their long term profitability. The "system" has rules and guidelines in place for generally very solid reasons.
When a front desk agent circumvents this process as a result of a payoff, it's hard not to see this as stealing.
Or, consider this: if you were the hotel owner and learned that your front line hourly employees were assigning suite upgrades after cash payments were received, how do you think you'd view this sort of behavior?
How about if you owned a restaurant and the waitstaff was comping desserts or drinks for guests who tipped them up front?
To me, it's incredibly simple. There is no grey area here.
Nov 20, 2013, 5:26 pm
#48
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,990
Maybe the note on file said, "a great suite might be freeing up later today, so don't move this plat to a regular room in case we can get her the suite instead - but don't get her expectations up by mentioning it until it's confirmed"? Maybe that's why the 'smile'? Maybe this was was all happening before the FD even received the 'tip'? Maybe the clerk didn't even know about the 'tip' until after his confirmation call to the OP?
As plausible as any other theory on this thread.
Cheers,
As plausible as any other theory on this thread.
Cheers,
Nov 20, 2013, 5:51 pm
#49
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Manhattan NV
Programs: Hilton LTD, Hyatt Glob, Marriott LTTE, AA LTP, Avis PC, National EE, Seabourn DE
Posts: 3,036
Nope..... I don't buy the Flews theory.
I do buy into OP's story. The guy sounds like a creep, but it could really just be a personality clash. Maybe he doesn't like the way you look. It happens.
But this story belongs on the desk of the hotel's GM.
I do buy into OP's story. The guy sounds like a creep, but it could really just be a personality clash. Maybe he doesn't like the way you look. It happens.
But this story belongs on the desk of the hotel's GM.
Nov 20, 2013, 6:17 pm
#50
Join Date: May 2009
Location: EUG
Programs: AS MVP, AA MM, HH Diamond, MR Gold
Posts: 8,247
I agree with hedoman (and the OP) - we've all come across the "fast-talking" snake oil/used car salesmen.
Nov 20, 2013, 6:42 pm
#51
Join Date: Mar 2012
Programs: Marriott & SPG Plat, HH Diamond, Accor Plat, ex-Fairmont Plat, ex-Swissotel Eleva
Posts: 710
Actually, if Starwood Lurkers can retrieve that "note", assuming if it is still in the system, then the mystery might be unraveled.
There has been good reports a particular hotel in Starwood that gives SPG Plats access to the club lounge only if the SPG Plat pays for it, otherwise it will be "full / at capacity" - but space will magically open up once payment is made. Perhaps this has changed now.
OP's report now shows that room upgrades can magically become available when a tip is offered directly into a Starwood employee's pockets; without which, better rooms are "unavailable" for upgrades.
Slippery road down. Hope it is an one-off incident, but Lurkers could advise Starwood policy on such employee behavior, ie. expecting a tip before willing to upgrade the SPG Elites when better rooms are available.
Lastly, I agree with roverkt that "tips are given (usually optionally) after/upon receiving good service, rather than as a condition to getting it. "
There has been good reports a particular hotel in Starwood that gives SPG Plats access to the club lounge only if the SPG Plat pays for it, otherwise it will be "full / at capacity" - but space will magically open up once payment is made. Perhaps this has changed now.
OP's report now shows that room upgrades can magically become available when a tip is offered directly into a Starwood employee's pockets; without which, better rooms are "unavailable" for upgrades.
Slippery road down. Hope it is an one-off incident, but Lurkers could advise Starwood policy on such employee behavior, ie. expecting a tip before willing to upgrade the SPG Elites when better rooms are available.
Lastly, I agree with roverkt that "tips are given (usually optionally) after/upon receiving good service, rather than as a condition to getting it. "
Nov 20, 2013, 6:50 pm
#52
Join Date: Aug 2010
Programs: MR LT Titanium, SPG LT Plat & Plat 100, SWA A+ & CP
Posts: 1,093
A few years ago, I was boarding a flight on an airline that I zero status on. It was a long flight and I was with my parents and sister. For the hell of it, I went up to that gate agent and said "Will $20 get me an upgrade to first class?" She said, "will you be giving the airline $20 or me $20?" I said "you". She looks at the computer and said "it does look like we have a weight and balance issue". I slipped her a $20 and she not only put me in first class but, to my surprise, she put us all in first class.
I have never done this at a hotel but have absolutely tipped for a good upgrade upon checkout by seekin out the FD person and handing them a card.
I have never done this at a hotel but have absolutely tipped for a good upgrade upon checkout by seekin out the FD person and handing them a card.
Nov 20, 2013, 7:18 pm
#53
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: BOS/UTH
Programs: AA LT PLT; QR GLD; Bonvoy LT TIT
Posts: 12,847
I'd give this one to the Lurkers. IMO it's a serious infraction.
Nov 20, 2013, 8:03 pm
#54
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: europe
Programs: EX-*wood platinum, EX-hyatt diamond, sixt platinum, hilton silver, leaders club, esselunga verde...
Posts: 2,048
Very interesting...
While I never tipped anyone for getting an upgrade, I remember that a concierge was tipped with 50 because of he advised a guest to stay elsewhere ( no nice rooms available at the hotel for this night )...
While I never tipped anyone for getting an upgrade, I remember that a concierge was tipped with 50 because of he advised a guest to stay elsewhere ( no nice rooms available at the hotel for this night )...
Nov 20, 2013, 8:56 pm
#55
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Peoria, IL
Programs: AA,UA,DL,BA,HH,*W,BW
Posts: 175
tips----To Insure Prompt Service
tips-- To Insure Prompt Service --tips. First observed in England in the 1700s. There is evidence that it also came from the French tippel and German trinkgeld. But overwhelming evidence is that the tip was given prior to the service being performed.
Nov 20, 2013, 10:25 pm
#56
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: YYC; YYZ
Programs: SPG Gold, Marriott Platinum, Hyatt Diamond, UA Silver
Posts: 231
Yes but the word useful in this instance is a value judgement and the original post wasn't written specifically for you or any other particular member of Flyertalk. I on the other hand got a lot more of what I would consider relevant information that is useful to understanding the issues the OP had at the hotel than the single line
Some seem to think of Flyertalk as their own personal fiefdom and that something that is of no interest to them or which presents an opinion with which they do not agree doesn't have a place here and should be ridiculed and belittled.
But hey after 15+ years of posting here I haven't reached the exalted status of Evangelist perhaps because I don't see much need to tell people what is and is not relevant and reasonable to discuss on this board(well at least not every second post I make) - I thought that was the role of the Moderators. Perhaps there should be a new title - Flyertalk Vigilante
Some seem to think of Flyertalk as their own personal fiefdom and that something that is of no interest to them or which presents an opinion with which they do not agree doesn't have a place here and should be ridiculed and belittled.
But hey after 15+ years of posting here I haven't reached the exalted status of Evangelist perhaps because I don't see much need to tell people what is and is not relevant and reasonable to discuss on this board(well at least not every second post I make) - I thought that was the role of the Moderators. Perhaps there should be a new title - Flyertalk Vigilante
Absolutely read my mind with this post!
Nov 20, 2013, 11:18 pm
#57
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Shanghai, Singapore
Programs: SQ*G, SPG Platinum, FPC Premier
Posts: 339
Thanks for that interesting bit of history/etymology but I'm sure I'm not alone in not living in the medieval ages.
Nov 21, 2013, 12:36 am
#58
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: India
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Posts: 29,739
The tipping thing doesn't always work. If there's a manager at that property whose been an external hire, it'll probably happen less frequently. If the season is busy, or if the hotel is slammed, or if they've hit capacity on a certain room, 9 out of 10 times a tip can't do a thing.
Head over to the AA forum to see the elites up in arms over a "pay to upgrade" system being implemented..I find that this thread has a lot of parallels.
Head over to the AA forum to see the elites up in arms over a "pay to upgrade" system being implemented..I find that this thread has a lot of parallels.
Nov 21, 2013, 2:06 am
#59
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: SYD
Programs: QF LTS, TK Elite, HH Gold, Marriott Bonvoy Gold
Posts: 175
I did find the post quite interesting - quite well-written compared to a typical FT post. Reading eloquent prose was a nice change. Not surprised to hear OP is a professional writer.
Given how prevalent tipping is in the U.S., I'm not surprised to hear it creeps into bribery quite often. I agree with those posters who claim that hotels do not really care about this issue. If they did, they could try to reduce the absolute authority of FD when it comes to published benefits for elite pax. and eliminate multiple loopholes around the system.
Right now, in-property upgrades are almost entirely up to FD discretion. There may be several rooms empty, yet they may just say "sorry, those are not really upgradeable". So you either need to placate the masters of upgrades (which in some properties may involve envelopes rather than just smiles), or miss out and gripe on FT later (plenty of examples here).
Apart from SNAs (which at least give you a time-window of 5 days to complain and sort out a mess if you're tricked out of an upgrade) there isn't much you can do on this when it comes to upgrades. At least SNAs have worked out OK for me so far, touch wood, so SPG is ahead on this compared to HHonors I think (where my suite upgrade ratio as a Diamond is <20%).
Given how prevalent tipping is in the U.S., I'm not surprised to hear it creeps into bribery quite often. I agree with those posters who claim that hotels do not really care about this issue. If they did, they could try to reduce the absolute authority of FD when it comes to published benefits for elite pax. and eliminate multiple loopholes around the system.
Right now, in-property upgrades are almost entirely up to FD discretion. There may be several rooms empty, yet they may just say "sorry, those are not really upgradeable". So you either need to placate the masters of upgrades (which in some properties may involve envelopes rather than just smiles), or miss out and gripe on FT later (plenty of examples here).
Apart from SNAs (which at least give you a time-window of 5 days to complain and sort out a mess if you're tricked out of an upgrade) there isn't much you can do on this when it comes to upgrades. At least SNAs have worked out OK for me so far, touch wood, so SPG is ahead on this compared to HHonors I think (where my suite upgrade ratio as a Diamond is <20%).
Nov 21, 2013, 4:19 am
#60
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2008
Programs: Everything is refundable
Posts: 3,727
Coming back to the topic: Especially after the publishing of "Heads in Beds" and all the publicity it got, hotel management should really monitor its employees better and establish a process for assigning rooms to reservations - and audit this process. Airlines can do it, then hotels also can do it.
It's a major downturner for me that a 20$-bill will override the spg upgrade process based upon the front desk agent in many US hotels. This is really wrong...!
And as the 20$-bill won't go into hotel revenue this is not only ethically wrong, it's stealing. Why would hotel management tolerate this?
It's a major downturner for me that a 20$-bill will override the spg upgrade process based upon the front desk agent in many US hotels. This is really wrong...!
And as the 20$-bill won't go into hotel revenue this is not only ethically wrong, it's stealing. Why would hotel management tolerate this?
^I know, I know that was long before the days of 'Compliance People' having a seat on the board of companies and during an era when von Pierer was still considered a moral leader in the business world.
Times have changed...