U.S. Domestic Passenger Flights Could Virtually Shut Down
Mar 26, 2020, 8:46 pm
#16
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 6,286
WN is still bound by their Contract of Carriage which has not been modified since crisis began --
9. Service Interruptions
Refer to Section 8 for conditions applicable to international travel.
a. Failure to Operate as Scheduled
(1) Canceled Flights or Irregular Operations. In the event Carrier cancels or fails to operate any flight according to Carrier’s published schedule, or changes the schedule of any flight, Carrier will, at the request of a Passenger with a confirmed Ticket on such flight, take one of the following actions:
(i) Transport the Passenger at no additional charge on Carrier’s next flight(s) on which space is available to the Passenger’s intended destination, in accordance with Carrier’s established reaccommodation practices; or
(ii) Refund the unused portion of the Passenger’s fare in accordance with Section 4c.
9. Service Interruptions
Refer to Section 8 for conditions applicable to international travel.
a. Failure to Operate as Scheduled
(1) Canceled Flights or Irregular Operations. In the event Carrier cancels or fails to operate any flight according to Carrier’s published schedule, or changes the schedule of any flight, Carrier will, at the request of a Passenger with a confirmed Ticket on such flight, take one of the following actions:
(i) Transport the Passenger at no additional charge on Carrier’s next flight(s) on which space is available to the Passenger’s intended destination, in accordance with Carrier’s established reaccommodation practices; or
(ii) Refund the unused portion of the Passenger’s fare in accordance with Section 4c.
That said:
The section you posted refers back to section 4c: (emphasis mine)
4c. Refunds
(3) Nonrefundable Tickets.
(i) General. The fare paid for unused travel by Passengers who purchase restricted, nonrefundable Tickets are not eligible for refunds, except as provided in this Section and Section 9b. Taxes, security fees, and Passenger Facility Charges associated with a nonrefundable fare are also not eligible for refund except as required by applicable regulations.
(ii) Travel Credit. Unless otherwise stated by Carrier, the fare paid for unused nonrefundable Tickets, including taxes, security fees, and Passenger Facility Charges, may be applied toward the purchase of future travel on Carrier for the originally ticketed Passenger only. The new Ticket may be more or less expensive or subject to different terms, conditions, or restrictions from the original Ticket. If the fare is lower, travel credit will be issued for the difference. No cash refund or credit card adjustments will be made for nonrefundable Tickets.
(iii) Travel Credit Eligibility. The expiration date of any travel credit will apply to any Tickets purchased with these funds. If a Ticket is purchased with multiple travel credits, the earliest expiration date will apply to the entire Ticket.
(iv) Travel Credit Forfeiture. Should a Passenger fail to apply the nonrefundable Ticket or travel credit toward the purchase of future travel within the eligibility period, the entire amount of the fare, including all taxes, security fees, and Passenger Facility Charges, will be forfeited.
(4) Delays or Involuntary Cancellations. If a Passenger’s scheduled transportation is canceled, terminated, or delayed before the Passenger has reached his/her final destination as a result of a flight cancellation, Carrier-caused missed connection, flight delay, or omission of a scheduled stop, Carrier will either transport the Passenger at no additional charge on another of Carrier’s flights, refund the fare for the unused transportation in accordance with the form of payment utilized for the Ticket, or provide a credit for such amount toward the purchase of future travel
(3) Nonrefundable Tickets.
(i) General. The fare paid for unused travel by Passengers who purchase restricted, nonrefundable Tickets are not eligible for refunds, except as provided in this Section and Section 9b. Taxes, security fees, and Passenger Facility Charges associated with a nonrefundable fare are also not eligible for refund except as required by applicable regulations.
(ii) Travel Credit. Unless otherwise stated by Carrier, the fare paid for unused nonrefundable Tickets, including taxes, security fees, and Passenger Facility Charges, may be applied toward the purchase of future travel on Carrier for the originally ticketed Passenger only. The new Ticket may be more or less expensive or subject to different terms, conditions, or restrictions from the original Ticket. If the fare is lower, travel credit will be issued for the difference. No cash refund or credit card adjustments will be made for nonrefundable Tickets.
(iii) Travel Credit Eligibility. The expiration date of any travel credit will apply to any Tickets purchased with these funds. If a Ticket is purchased with multiple travel credits, the earliest expiration date will apply to the entire Ticket.
(iv) Travel Credit Forfeiture. Should a Passenger fail to apply the nonrefundable Ticket or travel credit toward the purchase of future travel within the eligibility period, the entire amount of the fare, including all taxes, security fees, and Passenger Facility Charges, will be forfeited.
(4) Delays or Involuntary Cancellations. If a Passenger’s scheduled transportation is canceled, terminated, or delayed before the Passenger has reached his/her final destination as a result of a flight cancellation, Carrier-caused missed connection, flight delay, or omission of a scheduled stop, Carrier will either transport the Passenger at no additional charge on another of Carrier’s flights, refund the fare for the unused transportation in accordance with the form of payment utilized for the Ticket, or provide a credit for such amount toward the purchase of future travel
To be clear, I am not advocating this, just stating what a Southwest lawyer might.
Last edited by ursine1; Mar 26, 2020 at 9:00 pm
Mar 27, 2020, 5:49 am
#18
Join Date: May 2010
Location: TPA
Programs: All The Programs
Posts: 2,207
Again for the umteenth time, it is specifically, clearly, and undeniably called out on the DOT website, which I quoted above.
And for my second time, so long as the DOT is the one calling balls/strikes, you can't brush off their "guidance" just because it isn't in a FAR.
The DOT supersedes WN's COC.
Southwest can say they don't need to refund until they go bankrupt. That doesn't make it true.
And for my second time, so long as the DOT is the one calling balls/strikes, you can't brush off their "guidance" just because it isn't in a FAR.
The DOT supersedes WN's COC.
Southwest can say they don't need to refund until they go bankrupt. That doesn't make it true.
Mar 27, 2020, 11:40 pm
#19
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 6,286
Again for the umteenth time, it is specifically, clearly, and undeniably called out on the DOT website, which I quoted above.
And for my second time, so long as the DOT is the one calling balls/strikes, you can't brush off their "guidance" just because it isn't in a FAR.
The DOT supersedes WN's COC.
Southwest can say they don't need to refund until they go bankrupt. That doesn't make it true.
And for my second time, so long as the DOT is the one calling balls/strikes, you can't brush off their "guidance" just because it isn't in a FAR.
The DOT supersedes WN's COC.
Southwest can say they don't need to refund until they go bankrupt. That doesn't make it true.
DOT guidance does not supersede the Southwest CoC.
That DOT guidance is written to reflect current air carrier policies. Which are based on their own CoC. DOT guidance can change at any time, and very well may based on this situation.
Since Southwest is now, in fact, refusing to refund any WGA fares for flights cancelled by "government mandate" apparently they feel they have a right to do that.
Southwest has very highly paid lawyers.
It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.
Last edited by ursine1; Mar 27, 2020 at 11:45 pm
Mar 28, 2020, 12:56 am
#20
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Blue Ridge, GA
Posts: 5,512
Let's be clear. §259.5 Sec 4 "ENHANCED PROTECTIONS FOR AIRLINE PASSENGERS" is fully enforceable:
No airline's CoC can void that..nor supersede DOTs lengthy tarmac delay penalties.
Guidance on refunds for non-refundable fares may reflect current air carrier policies. But non-compliance seems high-risk.
(4) Allowing reservations to be held at the quoted fare without payment, or cancelled without penalty, for at least twenty-four hours after the reservation is made if the reservation is made one week or more prior to a flight's departure.
Guidance on refunds for non-refundable fares may reflect current air carrier policies. But non-compliance seems high-risk.
"If your flight is cancelled and you choose to cancel your trip as a result, you are entitled to a refund for the unused transportation – even for non-refundable tickets. You are also entitled to a refund for any bag fee that you paid, and any extras you may have purchased, such as a seat assignment."
Mar 28, 2020, 8:43 am
#21
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: San Diego, Ca
Programs: AA 2MM LT PLT; AS MVP Gold75k; HHonors Diamond; IHG PLT
Posts: 3,502
I personally plan to travel again, once the current restrictions are lifted. If floating airlines a loan for travel I already paid for helps keep them out of bankruptcy, avoids even larger government bailouts, then I am happy to do so.
Mar 28, 2020, 9:53 am
#22
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Norman, Oklahoma
Programs: Southwest A List Preferred, Bonvoy Platinum, Hyatt Globalist, American Airlines Gold
Posts: 694
I would not mind travel credit for the most part except that I wouldn't have travel interruption insurance from my credit card. If Southwest wants me to take travel credit, I will do it if they will provide the same benefits as my credit card. If not, no. I've got a copy of the CoC as well as the DOT guidance. Small claims court is easy enough, and refusing to honor their CoC is clearly acting in bad faith.
Of course, the real fun starts with when the class action suits start. Yay! We all get a free drink coupon and the lawyers get millions.
Mar 28, 2020, 10:30 am
#23
Join Date: Oct 2001
Programs: LTP, PP
Posts: 8,700
However, the general public and infrequent travelers probably are going to feel differently. Especially when there is no updated "dates & plans" to change to. Did anyone think of this? When was the last time an airline allowed one to fly and pay later?
Mar 28, 2020, 6:08 pm
#24
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: California
Posts: 1,129
Southwest used their lawyers long time ago to make sure that their CoC is iron clad.
You can't rely on a supposed DOT federal rule and still sue in small claims court. You will get thrown out by lack of subject matter jurisdiction. This means you need to spend money on a lawyer admitted to the federal bar. I'm 99% sure Southwest knows this and told all CSRs no further exceptions.
That leaves just the CoC for small claims court. As stated above, section 4c doesn't sound all that favorable for the passenger seeking a refund as the only acceptable outcome. Section 9 goes back to the dreaded section 4c, so you're still hosed. Small claims court isn't going to work.
You can't rely on a supposed DOT federal rule and still sue in small claims court. You will get thrown out by lack of subject matter jurisdiction. This means you need to spend money on a lawyer admitted to the federal bar. I'm 99% sure Southwest knows this and told all CSRs no further exceptions.
That leaves just the CoC for small claims court. As stated above, section 4c doesn't sound all that favorable for the passenger seeking a refund as the only acceptable outcome. Section 9 goes back to the dreaded section 4c, so you're still hosed. Small claims court isn't going to work.
Mar 28, 2020, 6:40 pm
#25
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 172
I know FT is awash with threads on this, which makes things hard to find ... but could you please provide a source?
The US Dept of Transportation is quite clear that this is a fact:
"If your flight is cancelled and you choose to cancel your trip as a result, you are entitled to a refund for the unused transportation – even for non-refundable tickets. You are also entitled to a refund for any bag fee that you paid, and any extras you may have purchased, such as a seat assignment. " (DOT website)
The US Dept of Transportation is quite clear that this is a fact:
"If your flight is cancelled and you choose to cancel your trip as a result, you are entitled to a refund for the unused transportation – even for non-refundable tickets. You are also entitled to a refund for any bag fee that you paid, and any extras you may have purchased, such as a seat assignment. " (DOT website)
Mar 28, 2020, 7:32 pm
#26
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 6,286
Let's be clear. §259.5 Sec 4 "ENHANCED PROTECTIONS FOR AIRLINE PASSENGERS" is fully enforceable:
No airline's CoC can void that..nor supersede DOTs lengthy tarmac delay penalties.
Guidance on refunds for non-refundable fares may reflect current air carrier policies. But non-compliance seems high-risk.
No airline's CoC can void that..nor supersede DOTs lengthy tarmac delay penalties.
Guidance on refunds for non-refundable fares may reflect current air carrier policies. But non-compliance seems high-risk.
Carriers are absolutely willing to take calculated risks right now, as they face dire circumstances.
Mar 28, 2020, 9:06 pm
#27
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Blue Ridge, GA
Posts: 5,512
Scenarios arising from the coronavirus pandemic were not prescribed. And DOT guidance cited is not conclusive and is presumably breakable.
FAR’s ensure safe aviation procedures and programs.
Mar 29, 2020, 11:21 am
#28
Join Date: May 2010
Location: TPA
Programs: All The Programs
Posts: 2,207
You can't rely on a supposed DOT federal rule and still sue in small claims court. You will get thrown out by lack of subject matter jurisdiction. This means you need to spend money on a lawyer admitted to the federal bar. I'm 99% sure Southwest knows this and told all CSRs no further exceptions.
It does not indicate that a credit is an acceptable substitute for a refund while it does specifically say that a refund is due. It does not say that you must accept a credit. It doesn't even suggest that you should accept it. The next paragraph isn't quoted because it isn't relevant.
I think that's perfectly reasonable.
Mar 29, 2020, 9:40 pm
#29
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 172
The next paragraph says how to evaluate a credit with consideration of availability, etc.
It does not indicate that a credit is an acceptable substitute for a refund while it does specifically say that a refund is due. It does not say that you must accept a credit. It doesn't even suggest that you should accept it. The next paragraph isn't quoted because it isn't relevant.
It does not indicate that a credit is an acceptable substitute for a refund while it does specifically say that a refund is due. It does not say that you must accept a credit. It doesn't even suggest that you should accept it. The next paragraph isn't quoted because it isn't relevant.
Mar 30, 2020, 6:40 am
#30
Join Date: May 2010
Location: TPA
Programs: All The Programs
Posts: 2,207
Ah, that's not the following paragraph on the page I quoted.
I'd respond by pasting the same paragraph again that I posted quote a few posts above.
I suppose you're welcome to rely on whichever conflicting paragraph you want, but I'm inclined to rely on the one that specifically says I am due a refund.
I'd respond by pasting the same paragraph again that I posted quote a few posts above.
I suppose you're welcome to rely on whichever conflicting paragraph you want, but I'm inclined to rely on the one that specifically says I am due a refund.