? On procedures, canceled flight
#31
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 413
With IRROPS, air traffic control prioritizes the larger planes to land and take off over smaller planes. It isn't just who happens to be ready first to take off or land that gets priority. And, MSP is a hub for DL flights, with something like 75% of the ground traffic. Otherwise, it would be a free for all, like the parking lot at Dodger Stadium after a big game! That's what I mean.
Alpha 1 09:00
Alpha 2 09:05
Alpha 3
Bravo 1
Alpha 4
Alpha 5
Charlie 1
Alpha 6
Alpha 7
Bravo 2
Alpha 8
Alpha 9 09:55
It's a bad weather day, and the airport can now only take one plane every 10 minutes instead of 5. The FAA assigns new slots to each of those flights at 10 minute intervals. Alpha 2 is now at 09:10 and Alpha 9 is at 10:50. Alpha airlines decides that Alpha 3 is a small regional flight and cancels it in order to get Alpha 4, the 747 from Heathrow, to arrive on time by taking Alpha 3's slot. Charlie, which only has 1 flight a day, doesn't have such options and just needs to eat the delay. Bravo 1 takes the delay, but Bravo 2 would get in way too late and they just cancel.
This is (an obviously oversimplified version of) how it works IRL. The FAA doesn't prioritize large aircraft, the airport doesn't get to decide that their favorite airline gets to come in, but an airline at a hub does have more flexibility to minimize disruptions to the greatest number of travelers by canceling strategically. An airline for whom it is an outstation doesn't have that flexibility, so if often has the appearance of favoring the hub airline, and airlines will always prioritize the profitable larger aircraft over RJs.
#32
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: LAS
Posts: 1,525
That's half true. Let's imagine a mythical airport with hub airline Alpha, and smaller carriers Bravo and Charlie. Here is the regular flight schedule (flights are in 5 minute intervals, I just didn't fill out the times due to laziness):
Alpha 1 09:00
Alpha 2 09:05
Alpha 3
Bravo 1
Alpha 4
Alpha 5
Charlie 1
Alpha 6
Alpha 7
Bravo 2
Alpha 8
Alpha 9 09:55
It's a bad weather day, and the airport can now only take one plane every 10 minutes instead of 5. The FAA assigns new slots to each of those flights at 10 minute intervals. Alpha 2 is now at 09:10 and Alpha 9 is at 10:50. Alpha airlines decides that Alpha 3 is a small regional flight and cancels it in order to get Alpha 4, the 747 from Heathrow, to arrive on time by taking Alpha 3's slot. Charlie, which only has 1 flight a day, doesn't have such options and just needs to eat the delay. Bravo 1 takes the delay, but Bravo 2 would get in way too late and they just cancel.
This is (an obviously oversimplified version of) how it works IRL. The FAA doesn't prioritize large aircraft, the airport doesn't get to decide that their favorite airline gets to come in, but an airline at a hub does have more flexibility to minimize disruptions to the greatest number of travelers by canceling strategically. An airline for whom it is an outstation doesn't have that flexibility, so if often has the appearance of favoring the hub airline, and airlines will always prioritize the profitable larger aircraft over RJs.
Alpha 1 09:00
Alpha 2 09:05
Alpha 3
Bravo 1
Alpha 4
Alpha 5
Charlie 1
Alpha 6
Alpha 7
Bravo 2
Alpha 8
Alpha 9 09:55
It's a bad weather day, and the airport can now only take one plane every 10 minutes instead of 5. The FAA assigns new slots to each of those flights at 10 minute intervals. Alpha 2 is now at 09:10 and Alpha 9 is at 10:50. Alpha airlines decides that Alpha 3 is a small regional flight and cancels it in order to get Alpha 4, the 747 from Heathrow, to arrive on time by taking Alpha 3's slot. Charlie, which only has 1 flight a day, doesn't have such options and just needs to eat the delay. Bravo 1 takes the delay, but Bravo 2 would get in way too late and they just cancel.
This is (an obviously oversimplified version of) how it works IRL. The FAA doesn't prioritize large aircraft, the airport doesn't get to decide that their favorite airline gets to come in, but an airline at a hub does have more flexibility to minimize disruptions to the greatest number of travelers by canceling strategically. An airline for whom it is an outstation doesn't have that flexibility, so if often has the appearance of favoring the hub airline, and airlines will always prioritize the profitable larger aircraft over RJs.
#33
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Blue Ridge, GA
Posts: 5,511
Often times, the regional carrier slots are sacrificed at the direction of their larger counterpart. For example DL will determine that their mainline airplanes will takeoff and land while Compass/Endeavor/SkyWest flights are cancelled. Since WN is entirely mainline, it does not have the luxury of keeping partner RJs on the ground, so a B737 gets cancelled to meet the operational numbers.
#34
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Nashville -Past DL Plat, FO, WN-CP, various hotel programs
Programs: DL-MM, AA, SW w/companion,HiltonDiamond, Hyatt PLat, IHF Plat, Miles and Points Seeker
Posts: 11,072
FYI - Skywest on the top of the list from last post is a contract carrier for Delta.
#36
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: MSP
Programs: Delta SM
Posts: 28
Yes, I did need a bit more clarification on everything on how flight Ops, and how specific airlines operate during IRROPS. The scenarios you guys described have been super helpful in what can go on behind the scenes. And I would say mirrors pretty well with what happened at MSP that day, with, in addition to SW, the rest of the cancellations were all regionals.
I just saw them cancel 7 hours out and later saw my planned flight land in BNA from FLL and get sent to Baltimore instead of taking me home. So I was just like ...? Delta wouldn't do this to a customer. Now I have a much better understanding why. Still I'm staying away from SW when I can, but I have a better understanding on their flight Ops at least out of MSP. SW could prolly handle delays much better from a hub on bad weather days, but an inbound to MSP on a shitshow of a day is going to lose them money with a long delay. And for the passenger, your rolling the dice more with a possible cancellation.
I just saw them cancel 7 hours out and later saw my planned flight land in BNA from FLL and get sent to Baltimore instead of taking me home. So I was just like ...? Delta wouldn't do this to a customer. Now I have a much better understanding why. Still I'm staying away from SW when I can, but I have a better understanding on their flight Ops at least out of MSP. SW could prolly handle delays much better from a hub on bad weather days, but an inbound to MSP on a shitshow of a day is going to lose them money with a long delay. And for the passenger, your rolling the dice more with a possible cancellation.
#37
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Nashville -Past DL Plat, FO, WN-CP, various hotel programs
Programs: DL-MM, AA, SW w/companion,HiltonDiamond, Hyatt PLat, IHF Plat, Miles and Points Seeker
Posts: 11,072
#38
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 179
Personally, I'm fine with an airline canceling flights in bad weather if it means they are being extra cautious and prioritizing safety. It's not ideal to have a canceled flight but better than taking risks.