ursine1

Yes... assuming that was the only "secret."

aubreyfromwheaton

From a layman's point of view:

Plane crashed

INDONESIA investigates and basically alleges that

there was sensor failure
this sensor failure pointed the plane into the ocean
BOEING was basically at fault because the pilots didn't even know what to do or have time

Boeing does not deny this.... and seems to freely admit that their training to pilots and manuals were lacking

So, why again aren't these planes grounded until they can sort out:

why was there a sensor failure?
why are the computers programmed to point planes into the ocean... if the AI is that 'dumb' there is a problem
why isn't this 'suicidal system' discussed in manuals or training?
how does BOEING know that their half assed directive solves the problem?

I think everyone is complacent ( ' now that they know what happened, these planes are safe ' is the logic) due to the overwhelming history of airline safety.

And anecdotes of "they've been flying these since 2017, and I've had no problem" are worthless

This just shows how the FAA and federal government are at the teat of Boeing's and the airlines' lobbyists

aubreyfromwheaton

Except that

The pilots may have to perform non-intuitive maneuvers in a very short span of time.
There must be only limited data that shows that the "recovery procedures" would work, given how soon this is.

Also, the "within three days" given to enforce the directive shows that even in lifethreatening situations, they won't ground the planes.

If you need to do it within 3 days, you should ground the planes until they can show they complied...

texashoser

If I were WN and their pilots, I'd be mad as hell. It would make me wonder what else Boeing is hiding. Now, I'm sure WN doesn't want to ground their MAX fleet but if I'm the FAA knowing that Boeing withheld important data like this I might be looking at grounding the aircraft until Boeing can get a software fix in place. Sure, the pilots now know what do to, but in critical manual flight, like right before landing with perhaps only 200 feet to recover, there may not be enough altitude and time to recover from a severe nose-down trim situation. Perhaps Boeing can disable this feature via software update until they figure out the problem.

OPNLguy

I hope you didn't take anything I said to somehow infer that everyone at SWA was "happy" about the situation--I can't see how anyone would be. I'm sure the company and pilot group are quite torqued-off about it. Likewise over at AA, and all the other Max operators.

ursine1

Presumably carriers can potentially put Boeing on the hook for costs involved in temporarily grounding planes. But as partners protecting their bottom lines, the planes are still flying. Risk management apparently says expense savings trumps an abundance of caution.

texashoser

I did not.

aubreyfromwheaton

Just read another piece in a reputable newspaper discussing the fact that this system may have been needed because the engines are so heavy that the center of gravity is significantly different than other versions.

kennycrudup

FTFY. Who knows what better-trained pilots would have done; "stall training" is up there with "IFR" training on the "stuff ya gotta have down cold to get your wings" list.

steved5480

Southwest Replaced Flight-Control Sensors of the Kind Implicated in Lion Air Crash

Maintenance logs show Southwest repaired two sensors during weeks before Indonesia crash

Nov. 15, 2018 8:11 p.m. ET
https://www.wsj.com/articles/southwe...=hp_lista_pos2

rsteinmetz70112

I'm pretty sure that many Captains will disable the system as soon as they get in the cockpit, trusting their skill and experience more than the guys in Seattle.

LegalTender

So how would they address differing stall characteristics in the MAX? I'm guessing pilots fly the NG and the MAX interchangeably during the week. To disable a software loop in the Flight Control computer might need a few tests.

ursine1

It's kinda hard to be trained on a system with functionality you don't even know exists.


Is this even possible?

rsteinmetz70112

According to some of the articles I read there are switched on the console which allow it.

rsteinmetz70112

Stall recovery is a standard part of pilot training. Take the plane up to 15,000 feet induce a stall and recover. I'm not sure I'd trust a simulator to get this right but would want to try it in a real airplane.